Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum

Author Topic: "Cannonballs" in the news...  (Read 7387 times)

Aquachigger

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"Cannonballs" in the news...
« on: July 03, 2013, 10:08:47 AM »
Don't know if this interests anyone, but I have to wonder why ANY Bomb Disposal Unit would think this was a Confederate Bormann cannonball. Am I missing something? Those guys can't possibly be that poorly trained. Maybe they included the wrong pictures in the article? Link...  http://j.mp/14qaU3R

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: "Cannonballs" in the news...
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2013, 10:34:05 AM »
Hi Chigger,
 It looks like it was solid with a through hole. It is difficult to see clearly, but looks like the shaped charge entered at about 10:00 on the left piece.  I cannot see where a Bormann would have been. I wonder whose document the deputy used? I think they need more training. :)
John

emike123

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Re: "Cannonballs" in the news...
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2013, 11:20:34 AM »
The police are not here to create disorder, they're here to preserve disorder.

Richard J. Daley

joevann

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Re: "Cannonballs" in the news...
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2013, 05:34:02 PM »
Yes, they are that poorly trained.  They get a whole six weeks at Redstone Arsenal, taught by a contractor, and the emphasis is on home-made devices.  Military ordnance gets only cursory introduction.  Whatever that is, we all know it's not a cannonball.

redbob

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Re: "Cannonballs" in the news...
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2013, 07:14:24 PM »
When the Army EOD experts arrived after Lawrence Christopher's incident, they spent the day blowing up bolts and shots and wondering why they didn't explode. To their defense however,  they were under a great deal of pressure to "do something".

John M. Brooke

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Re: "Cannonballs" in the news...
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2013, 09:20:27 PM »
It makes me really think about certain situations regarding the police and what can happen if they are not trained or knowledgeable about civil war ordnance. What happens if a neighbor or someone that is not wise to collecting calls the cops on you while your cleaning shells outside and the bomb squad shows up wanting to destroy your entire collection. This stuff is either legal to collect as long as it is safe and inert or its not. It should not depend on how much your local authorities know about ordnance relics.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: "Cannonballs" in the news...
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2013, 10:16:50 PM »
Cleaning should be done out of sight of others.
Drilling and powder removal should also be done out of sight of other, in a remote area and using remote techniques.
  If the law comes and they don't know any better, you are at their bidding and they usually don't know what to do with the ordnance, so they confiscate it and blow it up.
  About the above incident mentioned , I saw the agents in their bomb suits, bomb truck and evacuating the neighborhood.  It is drama to justify their existence and to get a bigger budget.
Proper training would help eliminate the problem and present a more professional posture to the public.
Cheers,
John

John M. Brooke

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Re: "Cannonballs" in the news...
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2013, 11:17:53 PM »
Thanks John, I would never clean or drill shells with people around. The point I was trying to make is about the ownership of expensive ordnance relics and your legal right to own safe and inert shells. If they are legal to sell, legal to ship, and legal to own then the police have no right to destroy personal property without first proving beyond a doubt that it is a live shell and proves to be dangerous to the public. To me it is the same thing as having $20,000 worth of Confederate belt buckles and having the police confiscate and destroy them.

Dave the plumber

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Re: "Cannonballs" in the news...
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2013, 07:39:52 AM »
          as in the past, we have seen the police usually only destroy shells when there has been an "incident" like at Lawrence or Sam's .      When people turn them in 'cause they found them  in the garden, that is an incident .  When they wash out on the beach here, it is an incident . They HAVE to act. Public safety. Unfortunately. But I kinda understand..  Obviously, there are not enough 'experts' in the authorities to realize the historic value of the shells. Plus, as stated earlier, they need to justify their existence and budgets...
    I keep my self super underground to my neighbors, and all is well. No reason for any of us to be blatant about it. I use only super safe remote drillers to deactivate, like Relicman and others.

emike123

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Re: "Cannonballs" in the news...
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2013, 12:43:50 PM »
It is totally legal to own this Civil War era stuff if it is inert.  The governing federal laws are posted on Jack Melton's website (www.civilwarartillery.com) under the "Introduction to Artillery" tab.  The grey, or more clearly problematic, area subject also to some local laws is the stuff that is not clearly inert.

An issue arises when there is the aforementioned incident, most notably an accident during disarming, and it causes folks to rush to judgement in the interest of "public safety."  Then the inert/harmless/solid baby can indeed be thrown out with the bathwater.

This is why, in my opinion, collectors should not inert their own shells.  If they insist on doing so, they should do as John said.  Personally, I think it is $35 or so well spent to let someone else handle the mess and break their drill bits.

There has been at least one recent situation, well post Lawrence Christopher and Sam White's self inflicted accidents, of Federal authorities going into a relic shop and taking one shell out of many that was not clearly inert.  As I understand it, they had probable cause to go in based on another relic related matter of suspicion of recovery of items on Federal land and had a warrant.  They used a wire probe on the shells and the one that was clearly not drilled out they confiscated.  It is unclear if it was destroyed in actuality, but it was taken.  Many others were left and considered safe.

Based on this approach, I feel good.  I don't hunt on public (or any) land and I don't do the disarming work or anything that would cause an incident.

I have a few ammo cans of legally purchased ammunition for my legally purchased, locked and registered firearms and a full can of gas in my garage for use in my snowblower.  These are 100% legal and a much greater threat to harm someone than legally owned, inert Civil War era projectiles if there was a fire.  I wouldn't ever use a handheld drill on my modern shotgun shells or full jerry can either!

I don't want to get into any half informed discussions of this stuff here that may end up being "inflammatory" so please think before posting.

As this is Independence Day, I think it appropriate to conclude with this quote from the father of our country:

It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.

- George Washington

 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 12:46:17 PM by emike123 »

jonpatterson

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Re: "Cannonballs" in the news...
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2013, 02:51:51 PM »
Well said Mike.   I just happened to read a somewhat related newspaper article today that I found comical, at least to a retired cop. It reads in it's entirety:

"The Illinois Secretary of State bomb squad was called to remove a suspected grenade from a Quincy yard Wednesday morning.

The Quincy Police Department reported that officers responded to a call at 10:01 a.m. in the 400 block of Scenic Drive. The owner of the residence found what appeared to be a grenade in the backyard of the residence. The bomb squad took the suspected grenade into custody"


I wonder if the judge will show up for its custody hearing? Can it have a lawyer appointed to defend it?    ???   OK, I will go back to my cookout. I thought it was cute.

A happy and SAFE 4th to all!!
It is history that teaches us to hope.

Robert E. Lee

Dave the plumber

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Re: "Cannonballs" in the news...
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2013, 05:22:23 PM »
   you're right Mike - let's drop it.       So on another subject you wrote " gas for a snowblower" . What's a "snowblower"  ??!!   We don't got dem here yup in da south.....

divedigger

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Re: "Cannonballs" in the news...
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2013, 11:27:24 AM »
us real southerners don't talk like that

joevann

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Re: "Cannonballs" in the news...
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2013, 09:48:38 PM »
Interesting note on Southern speech:  Major Lyons who toured both sides during the war as a British Military Observer noted that the Confederate Officers had no more accent than any upper class British gentleman.  The women, however, could barely be understood.

scottfromgeorgia

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Re: "Cannonballs" in the news...
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2013, 12:56:29 AM »
The British have always had a problem understanding women.