Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length



News: In the dread tribunal of last resort valor contended against valor. Brave men struggled & died for the right as God gave them to see the right - A. Stevenson

Author Topic: Yesterday was stupid day  (Read 3991 times)

emike123

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2160
    • Bullet and Shell
    • Email
Yesterday was stupid day
« on: May 29, 2013, 08:11:06 AM »

1840cavsaber

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • Email
Re: Yesterday was stupid day
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2013, 07:23:58 PM »
Unfortunately the idiot newpaper man who wrote the article doesnt specify whether these were "shells" or not, just simply calling them "mortars"...but I'll assume they were shells.

I've seen this kind of crap done to WWII ordnance items.......especially in Europe where dug up German ordnance like panzerfaust's, or grenades are found by (non-preservationists) and disposed of in the same way.

 Then again..........there was a Civil War dealer whom I bought from back in 2005, who died in the last 3-5 years by digging up and accidentally setting off.......a Civil War shell.

Very unfortunate all the way around.
But the enemy is here!, we did not want the fight, but the fight is here! R.E.Lee, 1993.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1786
    • Email
Re: Yesterday was stupid day
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2013, 08:36:51 PM »
Mr. 1840,
    This fellow was killed while digging up a projectile from the ACW?
I have not heard about this accident, can you shed more light on it for myself and the members?
Surely if he was killed there would be a newspaper or TV feature about it.
The fact that he was killed makes it public knowledge, except for me.
Regards,
John

Pete George

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 696
    • Email
Re: Yesterday was stupid day
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2013, 09:15:04 PM »
  The only civil war relic dealer publicly known to have been killed by a civil war shell in the past 30 years was Sam White. He was using a power-tool on a 0"-caliber Navy Watercap-fuzed roundshell when it exploded. He did not dig that shell... he was working on it for a customer who owned it.

  Sounds like the Rumor-Mill significantly mutated the actual facts before the story got to 1840cavsaber.

Regards,
Pete

1840cavsaber

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • Email
Re: Yesterday was stupid day
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2013, 10:24:14 AM »
My opologies,

It has been 4 (or more) years since I heard about it, I dont remember the gentlemens name, but he had an online CW artifact store that I had a 1860 DJ Millard Cav saber on layaway with. Within 2/3 years from 2005 he ended up getting killed by a CW shell.  I had assumed this happend while digging it out, but couldnt remember.

I know he was friends with either Tom Hays, or Larry Hicklen, as one or the other had this info posted on their website.........and thats where I heard about it at.....5/6 years ago. 
But the enemy is here!, we did not want the fight, but the fight is here! R.E.Lee, 1993.

1840cavsaber

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • Email
Re: Yesterday was stupid day
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2013, 10:42:07 AM »
I belong to Gunboards.com, and found an article from 2008 about this guy. He is the one I bought a saber from.


I cannot imagine how deadly that 8-10 inch ball would have been at such a close range, not trying to be morbid, but I dont think there would be too much left.

Article said that a 5-7lb chunk of shell was found 1/4 of a mile away and it went through somebodys house roof.
But the enemy is here!, we did not want the fight, but the fight is here! R.E.Lee, 1993.

emike123

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2160
    • Bullet and Shell
    • Email
Re: Yesterday was stupid day
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2013, 11:21:43 AM »
Most of us are aware of Samís demise in much more accurate detail than the news reports of the time.  Just as this most recent news report from Dayton demonstrates a high degree of ignorance and factual errors, so the initial reports from Chesterfield did in his case . 

As with other handful of accidental Civil War era projectile detonations, Samís projectile was provoked extremely.  In Samís case, it was not the act of digging or any normal handling, but in cleaning it up, he took one of those big red Milwaukee angle grinders to it.

Even though all projectiles should be inerted remotely by qualified personnel of whom there are many, there is absolutely no evidence of these black powder projectiles going off unprovoked.  Sitting in the back of a parked pickup truck in front of a fire station is not provocation.  There are a lot of household items as or more deadly.  I would not advise taking an angle grinder to a full petrol can, for example, but its generally ok to have one in the bed of your pick-up.  Likewise, maybe those firemen can use that high dollar remote arm shown lifting things out of the pickup in some of the Dayton photos to remove the oxygen cylinders from their firehouse. 

Pete George

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 696
    • Email
Re: Yesterday was stupid day
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2013, 01:50:13 PM »
1840cavsaber wrote:
>  I had assumed this happend while digging it out, but couldnt remember.

  Let me use that comment as the introduction to a HUGELY important fact about civil war artillery projectiles.

  No less than 100,000 civil-war-&-earlier artillery projectiles have been dug out of the ground. There seems to be no record of even ONE of the 100,000+ having exploded during the digging process -- even though they typically get struck with a shovel or pick during the digging-up process.

  Also, relic-diggers are notorious for using a hammer to bash the thick rust-crust off of dug 1860s-&-earlier artillery shells.  Again, there seems to be no record of even one of those shells exploding from being hammered-on.

  Such an enormous number (100,000+) of "tests" would appear to be thoroughly conclusive proof that excavated civil-war-&-earlier artillery projectiles are NOT "shock-sensitive." (Unlike 20th-Century projectiles.)

  The problem is that the average citizen and policeman (and even military personnel) cannot distiguish between a highly dangerous 20th-Century shell and a comparatively harmless civil war era one.  So, the Bomb Squad gets called for either kind.

  Some Public-Safety personnel are open to Education on the subject -- and some are not. I've made good progress with the Richmond-area police departments.  I suggest that it's worth a try with your local police department.

Regards,
Pete
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 02:17:12 PM by Pete George »

Garret

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
    • Email
Re: Yesterday was stupid day
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2013, 04:40:06 PM »
You would think the auction house who handled the sale would have fully disclosed whether the ordinance was disarmed or not (A legit auction house would not sell a loaded shell).  I fault the buyer in this case for not knowing what he was purchasing. 
"Suppose you were an idiot.  And suppose you were a member of Congress.  But I repeat myself."  Mark Twain

CarlS

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: Yesterday was stupid day
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2013, 06:36:13 PM »
Many people do not recognize when one is or isn't loaded.  It's much like the "Bomb Squad" people who blow up solid shots or become so alarmed over ACW ordnance in the first place.  It's a training issue but there seems for so many no desire to become good at their job.  The auction house likely takes the approach that if the seller didn't worry about it why should they.  They may have even asked "Is it loaded?" only to be told "Sure it is!".
Best,
Carl

joevann

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 354
    • Email
Re: Yesterday was stupid day
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2013, 06:42:14 PM »
It is, in fact, a training issue.  The six weeks of FBI contractor training that most civilian bomb squads receive does not qualify them to handle military ordnance of ANY period.  They are TOLD this during the training program, but they love to blow things up.  If they don't get in the papers, their budget might get cut.

jonpatterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
    • Email
Re: Yesterday was stupid day
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2013, 07:38:31 PM »
Pete stated in part:
ďSuch an enormous number (100,000+) of "tests" would appear to be thoroughly conclusive proof that excavated civil-war-&-earlier artillery projectiles are NOT "shock-sensitive." (Unlike 20th-Century projectiles.)
The problem is that the average citizen and policeman (and even military personnel) cannot distinguish between a highly dangerous 20th-Century shell and a comparatively harmless civil war era one.  So, the Bomb Squad gets called for either kind.
Some Public-Safety personnel are open to Education on the subject -- and some are not. I've made good progress with the Richmond-area police departments.  I suggest that it's worth a try with your local police department.Ē

Pete,et al:  I understand where you are coming from. Now perhaps you should understand where the local Public Safety personnel are coming from.  I am only speaking from the point of view of the first line, local police in how to handle such devices, not how a bomb squad would or should handle things. I was a policeman for 28 years, 15 as a sergeant, in the Chicago area before retiring. Sorry to say, we are largely trained to base our response on the worst case scenario. Three reasons for that being; the first, foremost and ultimate reason of public safety.  Secondarily officer safety and thirdly civil liability. Note I listed public safety first. As a front line supervisor my duty was to make reasonable full use of the resources available to me. On the totally remote chance an ACW explosive device were found in my jurisdiction, barring some reason to believe it has been rendered safe, EVEN KNOWING WHAT I HAVE LEARNED HERE, to this day, I would notify the bomb squad that our department used. They then could decide how they wanted to handle it. If I did anything else and by the freakiest of events it did explode, there would be no defense for the loss of life or damage to property be it civilian or officer. While I hate to see history destroyed, I would hate even more to see a living person destroyed. Not to pass the buck to the bomb squad, but perhaps they would respond differently if trained specifically to deal with such projectiles.  AND before you bring up the 100,000 times a shell has been poked, prodded and dug up with no recorded detonations, police open car trunks thousands of times a day and nothing happens. A coworker of mine did so one day and was promptly shot in the face with a rifle and killed. While history may give an idea of future events, it isnít conclusive.  Just my 2 cents worth.
It is history that teaches us to hope.

Robert E. Lee

Steve Phillips

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
    • Email
Re: Yesterday was stupid day
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2013, 08:39:56 PM »
We have an over riding responsibility to preserve history. There is no excuse for any people to destroy history because they are clueless about what the historical relic is. They should ask collectors to advise them about the relics and to put them in touch with those of us who can safely unload them. I have stopped several agencys from destroying our history and it hasn't always been easy. I admit that I have no patience with some of our public law enforcement.

CarlS

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: Yesterday was stupid day
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2013, 10:02:44 PM »
Jon,

Good input and good reality check.  Thanks for sharing.  And very sorry to hear about  your friend.  I can't imagine what it must be like to have that element of danger on top of doing your daily job.  Fortunately I go to work and don't worry about getting hurt or killed or watching the same happen to my colleagues.  Really no different than being in the military for many of our police officers.  Thanks to you and all others who do this for us.  I have a number of friends who are police officers and it certainly takes people of strong will.  No doubt being an officer on the front lines gives insight that arm chair quarterbacks like myself won't ever have full appreciation for.
Best,
Carl

coonboy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 58
Re: Yesterday was stupid day
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2013, 03:51:19 PM »
Carl:  Well said and well done
Terry