Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum

Author Topic: Oconee River Bolt at a high price;  (Read 11499 times)


Pete George

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Re: Oconee River Bolt at a high price;
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2013, 03:27:52 PM »
That same seller has been offering the "Oconee River Bolt" on Ebay continuously for approximately the past five months. The fact that it hasn't sold, even with such enormously widespread exposure, in that long a time, gives an "Educational" message.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Oconee River Bolt at a high price;
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2013, 03:45:23 PM »
Yep and he has efen changed the name.

scottfromgeorgia

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Re: Oconee River Bolt at a high price;
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2013, 06:14:05 PM »
I sold one for $900 a couple of years back. This one seems way overpriced.

redbob

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Re: Oconee River Bolt at a high price;
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2013, 07:10:19 PM »
I'm just glad to have it confirmed that they are real.

scottfromgeorgia

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Re: Oconee River Bolt at a high price;
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2013, 07:13:31 PM »
Red Bob, you walked into it. There are folks on this site who believe they are Confederate and belong to a cannon as yet unidentified, and those who believe they are post-war.  None of these bolts have ever been dug in an actual battlefield, so they are either very late ACW, or some kind of experimental post-war.

redbob

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Re: Oconee River Bolt at a high price;
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2013, 07:28:26 PM »
I bought it from a reputable dealer who had more to lose than to gain by selling it to me and besides I'm a sucker for a good story and the railroad gun story is a pretty good one. True or not-who really knows?

Pete George

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Re: Oconee River Bolt at a high price;
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2013, 01:46:16 AM »
I have too many well-founded doubts to believe they are civil war era.

1- They've been found in only one place, which is NOT a battlefield.
2- None are fired.
3- The one place they've been found (in the river at Milledgeville GA) has also produced several varieites of postwar Ordnance, including postwar projectiles (unfired .45-70 and .30-06 cartridges) and postwar (US Model-1896) artillery friction-primers.
4- Despite claims that they are for a Confederate 2.25"-caliber Breechloading rifled cannon, they are not 2.25"-caliber. I've put a digital caliper on their very-high-raised whitemetal bourrelets, which measure 2.23 to 2.25-inches. Therefore, they would not even slightly engage the rifling in a 2.25"-caliber rifle.
Sidenote to Reason #4:
 I've also measured the iron body next to the very-high-raised bourrelets. On the specimens I've checked it is 2.10 to 2.12-inches, which is appropriate for a 2.15 or slightly larger Breechloader -- not a 2.25"-caliber Breechloader.
5- Despite the claim that they are for the "Sumner Oscillating Breechloading Cannon," there seems to be no documentation anywhere which tells the Sumner's caliber.
6- Examination of specimens missing their bourrelets show there are three versions:
One body-groove for a bourrelet.
Two body-grooves.
Square iron body under the bourrelet, and hexagonal iron body under the bourrelet.
That indicates they are Experimental.
7- I've seen an 1880s photograph of a US Artillery officer's personal shell collection, which includes many postwar shells. It shows a projectile which looks EXACTLY like the Milledgeville single-bourrelet bolts, except that it is a much larger caliber.

  No, I do not currently have access to that 1880s photo. So let's again dismiss my eyewitness testimony about the photo as being "Hearsay!" (Note the exclamation-point.)

  The other six reasons for my serious doubt remain standing -- and they are why the so-called CS 2.25"-caliber Milledgeville bolts do not appear in the D&G-1993 book. Until somebody provides no-doubt-at-all proof which cancels the above six (or seven) reasons, I recommend not paying more than you'd be willing to spend for a postwar, experimental, no-combat-usage projectile. Even if no-doubt proof someday surfaces, only the word "postwar" would be subtracted from that descriptive phrase.

Garret

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Re: Oconee River Bolt at a high price;
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2013, 02:28:16 AM »
Thanks for your expertise, Pete.  I agree with your assessment.  Besides, there's a lot of exciting, guaranteed to have been fired during the Civil War shells on many dealers websites.
"Suppose you were an idiot.  And suppose you were a member of Congress.  But I repeat myself."  Mark Twain

scottfromgeorgia

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Re: Oconee River Bolt at a high price;
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2013, 09:18:56 AM »
I am a little surprised that reputable dealers are still selling that old story without any doubts at all. They all know there are doubts - so why the continued hype?

redbob

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Re: Oconee River Bolt at a high price;
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2013, 10:03:29 AM »
$$$$$

joevann

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Re: Oconee River Bolt at a high price;
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2013, 02:49:36 PM »
I will agree with Mr. George's assessment.  And the only reason anyone sells anything is money.  Caveat emptor.

scottfromgeorgia

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Re: Oconee River Bolt at a high price;
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2013, 02:55:08 PM »
Too cynical for my taste. There are dealers I trust not to sell me something that might not be so.

redbob

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Re: Oconee River Bolt at a high price;
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2013, 02:56:34 PM »
Red Bob, you walked into it. There are folks on this site who believe they are Confederate and belong to a cannon as yet unidentified, and those who believe they are post-war.  None of these bolts have ever been dug in an actual battlefield, so they are either very late ACW, or some kind of experimental post-war.

I see what you mean, but if I was going to dump some post war experiments; why Milledgeville?

Pete George

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Re: Oconee River Bolt at a high price;
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2013, 04:20:22 PM »
Logic suggests they were dumped in the river at Milledgeville for the same reason the poswar unfired Military cartridges and Model-1896 friction-primers were dumped there.
1- Ever since prehistoric times, humans have viewed any body of water as a convenient trashcan.
2- Especially with Military Ordnance that you don't want the local citizens (or their kids) eventually discovering and messing with at a dry-land dump (or burial), you make the stuff complicatedly inaccessible by dumping it into murky deep water. The murkier, the better. This is why so many Span-Am War and early-20th-Century army shells keep turning up at Buckroe Beach on the Chickahominy River here in Virginia. The army dumps the old obsolete projectiles into the river, and 80 years later the Corps Of Engineers dredges tons of sand (and ammo) from the riverbottom to replenish the eroding public beach.

Regards,
Pete