Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum

Author Topic: Korea 1871  (Read 12272 times)

bluelake

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Re: Korea 1871
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2012, 04:34:03 AM »
I heard back from Col. Biemeck yesterday.  His story regarding the 1871 Korean military action seems very interesting.  He's away on a trip for a few days, so we will, hopefully, connect after that.  I look forward to discussing his experiences in the 70s when he searched the battle areas--I think it will be very informative.  Thanks, emike123, for the reference!


Thomas



Pete George

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Re: Korea 1871
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2012, 03:47:51 PM »
  Thomas, your photo of the "3-inch Schenkl" shell shows it has indented ribs ...so I'm reasonably certain is a US Navy 3.4"-caliber Schenkl.  It would have been fired from the Navy's 3.4" Dahlgren Rifled Boat Howitzer.

  Also... the cannon which fired a 4.5" Schenkl was the 4.5" Siege-&-Garrison Rifle.  As its name implies, it was a Land Service cannon ...and it was so ponderously heavy that it very rarely got used during civil war battles.  (If I recall correctly, only used at 6 civil war battlesites).  Perhaps your larger Schenkl shell is a Navy 4.4" Schenkl, rather than the Army's 4.5"-caliber version.  If so, your larger Schenkl would have been fired by the Navy's 4.4" Dahlgren Rifle.

  I've included a mention of the cannon types because if you can reseach the artillery armament of each of the Navy ships involved in the 1871 Korea expedition, perhaps you'll be able to figure out which specific ship fired your shells.

Regards,
Pete

bluelake

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Re: Korea 1871
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2012, 07:02:42 PM »
Thanks for the input, Pete.  Regarding the smaller Schenkl, it was a measurement my colleague made, so I relied on it; I'll ask him.  Regarding the larger Schenkl, it would have been fired by the USS Monocacy, which had the following armament: (2) 60-pdr Parrott rifles, (4) 8-in. guns, (2) 20-pdr. rifled Dahlgrens, (2) 24-pdr howitzers, plus they borrowed (2) 9-in. guns from the USS Colorado.

Thomas



bluelake

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Re: Korea 1871
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2012, 09:11:43 PM »
I have a fragment of a small Schenkl that I found that would have been fired from the same battery as the intact one my colleague found.  I traced its outline and, at that point in the shell, it measured 3.25" across, so it was at least that diameter.  That supports the 3.4" suggestion.  Good info!


T



Pete George

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Re: Korea 1871
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2012, 10:53:04 PM »
  The following is meant as friendly, educational information -- not argumentation.  Pardon me, please, if you already know all the info.

  The USS Monacacy's artillery armament list incudes a "20-pounder" Dahlgren Rifle.  That cannon's caliber is 4.0-inches.  So, if your larger Schenkl shell is 4.5"-caliber, it cannot have been fired the the Monacacy.

  As I mentioned previously, a 4.5"-caliber Schenkl was for the the US Army's 4.5" Siege-&-Garrison Rifle, a Land Service cannon.  Also as mentioned previously, it was so ponderously heavy that it was used in very few civil war battles.  I have to say, as it was such a ponderous cannon, so seldom used, it seems not very likely that any would have been sent on the Korea expedition.

  That being said, there was a 4.4"-caliber Schenkl shell.  It was made for use in the US Navy's 4.4" Dahlgren "30-pounder" Rifle.  (The USS Monacacy's "20-pounder" Dahlgren Rifles were 4.0-inch caliber.)

  You see why we need truly Precision measuring of your shell's diameter to help you accurately determine which ship (or battery) fired it.  Of course, with uncleaned excavated projectiles, any rust/dirt-crust thickness must be carefully accounted for and excluded from the diameter measurement.

  In case you don't already know... projectiles for Muzzleloader cannons were always a bit smaller in diameter than the cannon's bore.  For example, a 4.4"-caliber Schenkl shell's diameter was typically about 4.35 inches.

Sidenote:
  Civil war artillery scholars have urged people to use a "pounder" designation only for Smoothbore cannons.  With Rifled cannons, the "pounder" designation tends to cause unnecessary confusion.  Here are some of many examples:
"12-pounder" Dahlgren Rifle = 3.4" caliber
"12-pounder" Blakely Rifle = 3.5" caliber
"20-pounder" Parrott Rifle = 3.67" caliber
"20-pounder" Dahlgren Rifle = 4.0" caliber
"30-pounder" Parrott Rifle = 4.2" caliber
"30-pounder" Dahlgren Rifle = 4.4" caliber

Regards,
Pete
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 11:05:23 PM by Pete George »

bluelake

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Re: Korea 1871
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2012, 12:31:07 AM »
Pete,

I'm really glad to have this discussion--I really appreciate your input. 

The large Schenkl had to have been fired from the Monocacy for a couple reasons.  One, there were only two of the five US ships that were sent up the Ganghwa Straits (Salt River): USS Monocacy (double-ender gunboat) and USS Palos (screw tug/gunboat).  That was because they were suited to shallow water situations, which the Ganghwa Straits was; the other three were larger sail-and-steam vessels.  The Palos was quite small (as it was a converted tug) and is only listed as having "2 guns" (although no mention could be found on what was exactly on the Palos, other ACW tugs listed two 24-pounders).  The large Schenkl was fired on June 10, 1871, just as the US force carrying troops passed a small island at the mouth of the straits.  Commander E.P. McCrea, of the Monocacy, recorded firing that (and a few other) shell: "At 11:30 a.m., as we came up with the battery on the south end of Louise Island, we threw into it a few shells, but received no reply, as the battery was deserted".  While it is possible the Monocacy could have had a 30-pounder added to its arsenal, it is doubtful, as ammunition expended on June 1 (the initial date of hostilities) included the following: 60-pdr. rifled 5-sec percussion shells, 8-in. rifled 5-sec. percussion shells, 20-pdr. rifled howitzer shells, and 24-pdr. smoothbore shells.  For the main battle, which happened on June 10-11, the USS Colorado loaned the Monocacy (2) 9-in. guns; no other guns are listed as being transferred to the Monocacy. 

My colleague is restoring the large Schenkl and, after that is completed, maybe we can have more definitive dimensions.

Yes, I am familiar with windage in muzzleloader cannons.

Great discussion!  :)


Thomas



bluelake

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Re: Korea 1871
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2012, 04:18:53 AM »
UPDATE: My colleague was just in the process of cleaning the shell up and piecing it together.  He needed another pair of hands to help, so I went over and did so.  We were also able to get better info, now that it's been cleaned up.

The diameter of the large Schenkl is 3.87", so it looks like this was a 4" shell, which seems to indicate use with the 20-pounders that were on the Monocacy.  It's good to clear up the mystery; thanks, Pete, for the incentive to do so  :)


Thomas


 

bluelake

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Re: Korea 1871
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2012, 07:49:36 PM »
A view before it was pieced back together...