Confederate James shell

[emike123]

These CS James are recovered at Port Hudson, LA.

3.3" Archers are recovered at Shiloh.  There were two Louisiana batteries with 3.3inch guns at Shiloh, the Washington Artillery and another one I can't remember off the top of my head.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Thanks Mike,.  Guess I should have got into tubes but projectiles and fuzes were enough for me. I know they are related  but just couldn't get into them.  Guess ifr I did I would not asking these apparently dumb questions. If Port Hudson were the projectiles only location it would seem like one heck of an expenditure of time, materials and funds.  Do we know approximately how many were made/expended?
Gotta keep the Schenkl alive, when did he die?
Best,
John

[alwion]

3.3 confederate tube    D&G list a Archer, Burton, James, Marshall arsenal common shell, Marshal arsenal 4-stud mullane, various Reads,Selma disc, borman fused case shot, Dahlgren,  all CS copies for that size

In Bells book shows John schenkl was killed in 1863 when an experimental fuse exploded. seem to recall elsewhere he was "working on it" and his compound secrete died with him, but can't remember the source

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Alan,
He was killed by an experimental fuze?   That almost sounds like the way James was killed.  Are you certain of it?
According to a letter from the War of the Rebellion, Series 1, Page Page 676
"JANUARY 8, 1862   I am informed that the mail will leave today for the Tootle. It may be well to state that the Schenkl shot that have been supplied to the battery appear to the tam large ill their paper envelopes, than envelopes or cylinders fitting too close for a foul piece. The only means that I have of reducing them is to pass them through a hot ring." (minus a couple of OCR conversion error).
   The union was experiencing problems with the paper mache swelling long before John Schenkl died.
    It is evident that after his death, his wife Frederica received a patent in Jan 1865 that showed earlier corrections adopted for the problem including the two bands and rear plate.
   It is doubtful that a dept full of workers would not know what they were adding to the ground up paper to give it the right casting and weatherproofing qualities in order to cast the "mess" onto a wooden form to dry.  Comments? See patent #45,951 .  She was apparently in partnorship with Edward A. Dana.
All the Best,
Bart

John

[CarlS]

The 3.3-inch CS James have been found at Port Hudson and Shiloh for sure.  It seems to me that I've seen/heard of another location one was found at but I can't recall for sure.  More of the 3.3-inch Archers were found at Shiloh than the James it seems but the 3.3-inch Archer shells and bolts are found at a number of locations in both theatres.  For as rare as the 3.3-inch gun is, there is a good variety of ammunition for it as Alan points out. 

Also of note, there is no definite US ammunition such as a Parrott, Hotchkiss, etc that are for the 3.3-inch calibre.  And with as much variety as Hotchkiss and Parrott made there would proably be at least one of those if the US had a gun to put it in.

Additionally, does anyone know where the dropped 3.3-inch CS James were found at Port Hudson?  If found within the CS lines it would lend strong circumstancial evidence to support what there is little doubt about anyway and that is that they are Confederate and deserving of their high value! 

[emike123]

We have at least 2 Port Hudson gurus amongst our members so please speak up on this R and J!

[alwion]

John , I  have confused James with Schenkl, disregaurd rank and method of death. I used to have an almost photo memory, 40 years ago, now I'm like a computer with a virus:)
1863 Date and info on Sabot secret are in Bell's, along with part about not even known to wife. I notice the patent reads like a grocery list, and contains no proportions , timing, or steps, which was probably the "secret".  I think she had a good lawyer, it's general enough she would get royalties on any paper sabot design. According to Jack, it wasn't just swelling problems after his death, but sometimes also too hard to take the rifling, or too soft and swelling, implying that something wasn't done as consistently as previous. I though about the workers and quanity involved, but no one seems to know the formula even now, so there was a step involved he didn't share or they kept it well for him. Some compounds are very specific, one component added at wrong time or quanity changes the whole batch. Could also have just been a quality control issue. I don't know more

[alwion]

31. -- SCHENKL, JOHN P., the inventor of the Schenkl Shell, died in Herdelberg, Germany, whither he had gone for his health, aged about 40 years.

http://www.nytimes.com/1865/01/29/news/dead-1864-january-february-march-may-june-july-august-september-october-november.html?pagewanted=all

course this just confuses why his wife was here and no one would know the process if he was ill and left the country. another mystery

[Selma Hunter]

Emike & All -

Did we not have examples of 3.3" projectiles recovered at Blakeley & Spanish Fort?  Seems to me that there was a gun tube there that had been rebored to that size?

Selma Hunter

[emike123]

Selma Hunter:

There were so many tubes in and around that area that it wouldn't surprise me to learn there were 3.3" ones there.  I am not sure they'd be re-bored tubes, but rather those 3.3" CS guns that turned up in surprisingly many places from Virginia to Louisiana.  I do not recall seeing a 3.3" projectile that was known to have been recovered in Spanish Fort or Fort Blakely, but you have better sources in those places.

[Pete George]

Selma Hunter wrote:
> Did we not have examples of 3.3" projectiles recovered at Blakeley & Spanish Fort?

  On a shell-digging trip with Tom Dickey in the mid-1970s, I personally dug a 3.3" Read shell out of the exterior face of a yankee cannon emplacement at Spanish Fort AL.  That specimen had a "tall" thin copper sabot, showing 7-groove rifling marks, and the distinctive Selma-style baseknob.  Its fuze was the CS copy of the "West Point" 2-piece percussion fuze.

Regards,
Pete

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Pete,
Can you post an image of the Read?
John

[Pete George]

  No, I can't post a photo of it, because I sold it to help pay for my college tuition.  But here are a couple of photos showing the exact type of 3.3"-caliber Read shell I dug at Spanish Fort.  One of the photos shows an unfired sabot.  Mine was definitely fired, having nice clear 7-groove rifling.

Regards,
Pete

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Thanks Pete,
   A beautiful speciman.   Can you photograph the fuze parts for us?
John

[Pete George]

  By John D. Bartleson Jr.'s request, here's a photo showing all the parts of a Confederate "West Point" percussion fuze.  As you see, its overall form quite similar to the yankees' James percussion fuze ...so, some collectors call it a "Confederate James fuze."  But this particular Confederate version differs from the James in the following ways:
1- The conical copperbrass anvil-cap's tip is distinctly flat.
2- The anvil-cap's underside is solid, instead of recessed like the James version.
3- The slider is made of a white-metal alloy, similar to solder.
4- The slider's top has two small copper wires, which are positioned on opposite sides of the nipple. The wires' purpose is to hold the percussion-cap firmly on the nipple.
5- The nipple is an integral part of the slider ...meaning, the nipple and slider are a single piece of metal.  The James percussion fuze used a steel nipple, which was screwed into the slider's top.

Regards,
Pete