Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum

Author Topic: 3 inch Mullane  (Read 9642 times)

Dave the plumber

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3 inch Mullane
« on: January 19, 2012, 07:43:31 AM »
         I started a new subject heading here because the Dyer conversation was unto itself and the Mullane was a tangent to the subject

        Question;   In the photo from ebay of the Mullane shell,  is that a  wood 'shock absorber ' between the cast iron of the shell and the brass sabot, or old Antietam dirt ??  Possible hemp with a lube for the barrel ??   \
       If it is wood, it seems like a pretty extensive parts \ time consuming system to put together just to get 'er to fly right. Three pins drilled into the base, two shock absorber lathed turned wood pieces, brass sabot, bolt manufactured , threading the shell base and the sand cast shell

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: 3 inch Mullane
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2012, 10:01:27 AM »
Dave,
   As I understand the assembly and operation of the small caliber Mullane, the long hex head bolt is past through the hole in the one piece wooden block, then passed through the center hole of the brass sabot, the sabot is rotated so that its three holes line up with the three studs in the shell base, the bolt is then screwed home.
   I also believe the purpose of the groove in the wooden block has yet to be proven with documented, written evidence.  Could it have been a lubrication groove, I just don't know.  Unfortunately the C.S. documents have yet to be found that will explane a lot of our questions. So we will continue to debate this shell and I guess, standfast in our opinions until clear evidence will prove accordingly.
All the Best,
John aka Bart

alwion

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Re: 3 inch Mullane
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2012, 11:08:29 AM »
I'll try and find out some of these questions and post some better pictures

alwion

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Re: 3 inch Mullane
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2012, 11:26:17 AM »
I'm trying to switch threads as John requested, and wish to add a thought. He wanted to know why the Schenkle knob was so small and how you would fix ammo. No opinion, but why do we have to assume any certain size for the tie area for fixed at all. any size smaller than the shell itself would work, and with the variations in all the shells, I'm sure there were several different theorys at work on this idea. Maybe the knob on Schenkle had no purpose with regaurds to the bag of powder and it was attcahed to an unknown style sabot. seems we are short of examples with the powder bag still attached on any examples, for good reason:)))). even early collectors probably cut them off and disposed of the explosive part. I know some small caliber bullets seem to have fixed charges, but I'm not enough of a collector to know if they were for breach loaders only. can we gain any knowlege from how the skin and paper cartridges were made. I think the one skin cartridge bullet I have was glued on, which might have worked on a paper Schenkle sabot. once again, I have thrown out fast ideas to see if my lack of knowledge could provide an idea and don't mind being beat up if these ideas are as off the wall as I intended them to be, just provoking some different views.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: 3 inch Mullane
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2012, 12:55:41 PM »
Sir;
    It was Dave's post to single out the Mullane.  With regard to the schenkl knob, the paper mache extended rearwad to the beginning of the knob. A metal plate enclosed the rear of the sabot and was placed over the knob with its central hole the same as the knob. This is based on drawings, including my own, that I have exanined.  I have not seen a pristine Schenkl complete with a perfect sabot.  Perhaps someone has such a speciman? Sorry Dave, I didn't mean to disrupt the Mullane post you started.
We need to start a new post if we are to start a new subject otherwise the post beome confusing after a long post.  Thanks.
John
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 01:56:39 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

alwion

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Re: 3 inch Mullane
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2012, 04:25:56 PM »
 Sir John, Do we have any pictures of the plate, I would assume they are rare. could there have been two styles of rear plates, one with a tie ring. I also don't remember an complete schenkle to look at, anyone got a mint example?

Jack Wells

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Re: 3 inch Mullane
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2012, 04:49:19 PM »
Don't know if this will shed any light or not. In 1972, I acquired a 3" Hotchkiss Case Shot shipping Crate,and a 3" Schenkle shell shiping crate,and when you placed a shell in the crate,the fuze was within 1/2" of the top of either crate.The Schenkle crate had recesses in the bottom for the "Knob,and the Hotchliss crate had shallow recesses in the bottom of the crate with rounded bottoms. There is no way a powder bag could have been attached to either of these projectiles ,and shipped ,as the projectile with a powder bag attached would have stuck up too high. The crates were only marked Shell or Case,and dated 1862 .The Schenkle crate was marked:  10 Shells TO:Col Kingsberry CFO Yorktown 1862,and all you could read on the Hotchkiss crate was:Unreadable, 10 Pdr. Unreadable,  Case,  S ouis 2.( St Louis ?) 1862. As to the question as to what fitted what, only a Schenkle would fit in the shell crate and a Hotchkiss in the Case crate. A 10 Pdr. Parrott would either lean or fall over if placed in either crate.I think the late Tom Dickey took photos of both crate ,when he was working on Vol 2. I think the photos turned out as he only asked to do repeat Photography of a 15" case (Tapered Fuse well,Fuse Well,was larger dia. than the big brass drive in water cap,Shell was filled with 1 1/2 " Iron Shot,set in tar),a fired 3.4" Dahlgreen "Pluged Shell" (Brass Rivet in Nose,filled with casting sand) with "Hemp String " mashed into the grove near the base of the sabot,and a 10" "Murry" Bolt that I had in my collection.
Pete  do you have access to any of Toms photos? If so the photos of the crates may be there.
Did they perhaps attach a powder bag to the projectile at the Limber when the gun went into battery? ,I've no idea.Seige guns were loaded separately from what I've read ie: Powder Bag was loaded and ramed followed by the projectile.I do know from books and period photos the Seige Projectile and powder were boxed and shipped seperate.
Trust the above will help
Jack
Charles.J.Wells (Jack)
SGM. U.S.A. Ret.

alwion

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Re: 3 inch Mullane
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2012, 05:01:34 PM »
Here are some more detailed pictures of a 3 inch mullane sabot with tie ring. To answer Johns question in the other thread, there is hemp string , approximatley 1 mm diameter, and 5 wraps visible in one area, with obviously more below
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 05:16:20 PM by alwion »

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: 3 inch Mullane
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2012, 07:17:48 PM »
sir'
   I don't know your name so I always address my seniors as Sir.
the material wrapped between the shell base and the brass sabot is greased and provided barrel lubricate, it has nothing to do with the attachment of a powder bagt.
Can you post a base view of this shell? It appears to have a intact wood block.  Pleaselets stop referring to the groove as a "tie ring" as we have yet to see evidence of a bag tied to it.
Best Regards,
John aka Bart
P.s. to answer your question about the rear plate, since the straps were of a zinc type material I would assume the rear plate would be of the same or similar material.  Great photos, do you own this shell? I would love some 300 dpi image of it.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 07:24:14 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

alwion

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Re: 3 inch Mullane
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2012, 09:20:24 PM »
How bought we compromise, My name is Alan:)   sir makes me feel really old  lol. the reason I posted this was for the details of the sabot. the packing above the copper part of the sabot is  as you stated, but you had questioned if it was grime or packing previously. The part we believe to be the tie ring is mostly sheared away on the wood part of the sabot. Please look at the last picture in the above post, two small sections  remaining show better where there is a turned groove, they oddly enough lined up on each side of the shell in the last pictures, more complete on one side or the other. they are sheared away in the other two views. my camera won't take closeups and is too expensive to have fixed, these are taken with a scanner. This picture was from an ad
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 09:39:47 PM by alwion »

alwion

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Re: 3 inch Mullane
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2012, 09:38:03 PM »
BTW I'd never heard of fixed ammo before this week, so my only opinion is that as nice of turnings as you do( that was you right?), you know that that groove had to have a purpose of some kind. I'm doubting it's decorative, its too much work to add, and powder bag attachment does make some sense, but I'd never state that I'm 100% sure of anything i'd not seen. even having disposed of all the fixed bags off all the ammo for safety, you would think a few examples would remain somewhere, scrap of tied on bag, or picts or records better than we've seen. I can think of how to attach to several shells, but the Hotchkiss doesn't seem possible, but I really know nothing:(  those pesky grooves have to have a better name than mystery rings, at least if we say tie ring we know what we are discussing, and they are similar to the grooves on shells we do know had fixed ammo. anyway not here to argue, and don't want anyone to ever think I am, just throwing out info and ideas to ponder. provided these pictures as an exhibit for discussion

speedenforcer

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Re: 3 inch Mullane
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2012, 01:58:30 AM »
great thread going here. I am learning.
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: 3 inch Mullane
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2012, 03:42:03 PM »
T return to the Tennessee Sabot System:

Dear Allen,
      As a further response to your posts on the Tennessee Sabot may I submit the following observations?
       This small caliber sabot system is probably the thinnest sabot in the inventory of projectiles.
   If you look again at your image, which has been enhanced, you will notice that the edges of the sabot have started to bend rearwards, unfired the forward edge of the sabot is flat with a slight cup in rear.  To help prevent this “bending” the wooden block, sometimes referred to as a “shock absorber” , is placed within the 120 degree placement of the three shell base studs to reinforce the sabot to slow down this bending action.  Without the block the sabot would continue its rearward bend and become disengaged from the rifling, reducing projectile rotation affecting its accuracy of fire.  The rearward bending accounts for the edge chipping of the block.  Hence, I believe, to be the main purpose of the wooden block.  As to the groove around this block, who really knows?
       Again, the grease coated twine between the shell base and sabot is for bore lubrication.  The bands cast on the shell body are cut to proper bore diameter to support the shell body and center it in the rifling and provide small bearing surfaces to save wear on the bore rather than the entire shell having to fit the bore diameter. The half round portion of the sabot shown in this view is where the sabot is cut or ground to permit flame passage to forward end os shell to light the paper time fuse.
Best Regards,
John aka Bart

P.S. Perhaps it is my poor eyesight but thw wooden bloakc appears to be cut in half around its center with the forward portion having a larger diameter than the rear piece.  Also, does anyone see rifling marks on this view of the sabot? Comments?  -30-
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 03:51:36 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

alwion

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Re: 3 inch Mullane
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2012, 11:29:31 AM »
hi John, i will try and answer those details

1 yes the sabot is warped, but the condition and lack of fuse( it is a screw in fuse) , and no rifling present, leads me to believe this is a drop, maybe because someone hit it or they threw it off to the side because the sabot is warped. I believe the former because there is a 1/8 x 2" linear mark along the top edge of the sabot anout a 1/8" in. if it was done prior to firing, it wouldn't have worked at well . I see no practical way for it to have happened after fireing, but its possible.

unless it was field modified, like with a hammer and dull chisel, to allow a flame gap, by just making one side not fit as tight, but thats a really long shot idea.

2.unfortunatley( and jealously) I can't do picture like you can, but will try and descibe the  sabot. If I have to, I can draw and scan a picture, but it would be a line drawing
To start with we have a one piece wood cylinder 2" in diameter and 1" long
when turned, I see 4 extra steps which would absolutely be unneeded to just hold the sabot flat during firing

1/2" from the top, we have included a approx 30 degree taper, reducing the diameter a little over 1/4"
The shadow you saw (thinking 2 piece)is a straight cut, going into and reducing the diameter another 1/8".
1/8" down, there is a groove all the way around, indicating the groove which was turned into it to be 1/8" x 1/8"
below that, for the remaining 1/4", the sabot then gains diameter again, my best guess is to the diameter at the bottom of the taper. because of the damage, I can tell you the largets remaining piece sticks up 1/8"

I thought the diagram would help, to took the time to include. precise measurements would maybe vary, but these are close

note: 98% of that bottom area are missing, but two points still stick up, so I'm sure of what I drew, but the bottom could have had a reverse 30 degree taper to the one shown, and returned to the original diameter for symetry

Hope this clarifies, and John if you wanted to post some your magic, I'll confirm what you drew till its what I can see, because your drawings are much better than mine

Additional note: the bolt has a lathe divot in it, indicating that possibly some lathe work was done AFTER sabot assembly, unless the collar on the bolt was the part turned. this type shell took alot of work compaied to other types
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 11:34:56 AM by alwion »

alwion

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Re: 3 inch Mullane
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2012, 11:45:00 AM »
Here is a possible turning, with the dash's the possible. Does a lathe guy have an opinion of which whould be easier?
I also propose that on a metal lathe,  a preformed cutter could be used for either idea. If hand cut I think the second taper harder to make, but if it was for some kind of string attchment, the tapers on both sides would help