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Author Topic: Those Pesky Little X's  (Read 27846 times)

Treadhead

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Those Pesky Little X's
« on: January 06, 2012, 11:08:16 PM »
In a recent post, the subject came up as to the purpose of metal X straps that are found on the undersides of some Dyer sabots.  My assumption has been that the straps are to reinforce the center of the sabot at its weakest point to prevent it from cracking when the projectile was fired.  I don’t believe that metal strips or straps are to hold the sabot on in flight as there’s not direct connection between the straps and the iron body.  There are other theories as to the purpose of the straps and that’s where the fun begins.  I don’t think anyone really knows for sure.

To present my thoughts, I’ve attached three pictures:

Picture 1 is a profile view of the 3-Inch Dyer projectile.  Please note that the thinnest part of the sabot is in the center.  When the sabot is fired, the sabot bulges out into the rifling that exerts stress on thin center part of the lead sabot.  It’s forced outwards in all directions.  This is where the sabot is most likely to break during firing.

Picture 2 is of several Dyer sabot fragments from a top view.  Please note that every one pictured is broken starting at the center and is broken into halves & quarters mainly along lines of weakness inherent in the Dyer design.  None of these sabot fragments had the metal strips (X) added.

Picture 3 is of a Dyer sabot with the metal straps (X) attached in the center of the sabot.  Please note that the sabot didn’t break in the center like the ones shown in picture 2, but fractured exactly where the metal straps stopped.

I’ve also seen some Dyer sabots with extra metal or solder added to the cup.  I think there’s a possibility that is to protect the straps and the center of the sabot.

Oh yeah, none of this stuff worked.  The Dyer still failed badly.

Anyway, that’s my thoughts.

Doug
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 11:12:16 PM by Treadhead »

acwbullets

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Re: Those Pesky Little X's
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2012, 12:59:27 AM »
Doug,

I am not sure what the metal straps are for either. As you know I have been digging an area that was pounded by Dyer shells for years. All of the intact specimens have either a full sabot or no sabot at all. I have calclulated that about 3% of the total intact Dyer shells from Shepherdstown threw their sabot when fired. Those shells that threw their sabots only tend to have the top edge fractured or spun off. The bases always remain intact. The only large sabot base fragments we have ever found were from exploding shells. I would tend to think that the straps would be for a powder bag or something other than to hold the sabot on. Unfortunately we haven't been able to pull one out of the river that has the straps intact.

Attached are some pictures of those from the Dyer hole.

Treadhead

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Re: Those Pesky Little X's
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2012, 10:08:24 AM »
Hey Ian,

Your detail on your finds over time is awesome.  That’s the kind of facts that can really round out a picture.   There’s a lot be learned at Shepardstown the way that battle unfolded.  I wonder how many Dyer’s failed to even travel a few hundred yards and “got wet.”  I can’t speak to whether the sabot fragments in picture 2 came from the loss of the sabot, or detonation.   I certainly don’t believe that all those I pictured were lost or cracked sabots.  I just wanted to show the point of weakness in the sabot design and the possibility that the straps were placed on the other side to reinforce that area. 

  I’ll be passing through your area as soon as it gets warm enough on my 200 mile / 2 day C&O Tow Path mountain bike trip next spring.   When I get to your place, I think I’ll still have 72 miles to go.  Ouch!

Doug

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Those Pesky Little X's
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2012, 08:16:12 PM »
To All,
   I have read with interest the opposing discussions about the pupose of the 'X' tin straps soldered onto the exterior of the lead sabot cup.  If I uderstand Doug's postion - I don't think he has implied that the straps were to fasten the sabot to the cast iron shell body BUT was soldered there to help prevent the sabot from cracking at its weakest point and thereby helping the sabot to throw off.
  Pete has a sound position about the straps being used to fasten the powder bag.
    I believe Doug has illustrated his position very well. I thnk now we should be provided with some evidence of the latter.
Perhaps both are correct.  I would be interested in reading the Taylor letter.
Unfortunately since Dyer never patented his design it is difficult to learn of Dyer's intentions.
I have seen early Dyer shells that had no tin straps, how were their powder bags attached?
Best Regards,
John aka Bart
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 08:21:12 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

Treadhead

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Re: Those Pesky Little X's
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2012, 06:37:38 PM »

One reason I asked to debate the tin straps on the Dyer was that until Pete mentioned to hold on a powder bag, I ready hadn’t considered it and want to know more.  One reason why I didn't consider that as a possibilty was something I learned while loading Parrott & Ordnance rifles in competition on crews in the NSSA. (North-South Skirmish Association) That is that rifled projectiles are normally loaded in a two-step fashion.  First the powder bag is loaded and rammed, then the projectile.  The reason for this is unlike the smoothbore guns where the windage is fairly large and the bores smooth and free of edges, the rifled gun has very little windage and sharp curved edges to interfere with the loading process.  Its just too easy to have the flimsy wool bag that holds the powder to bind-up and jam the projectile in the rifling before the round is seated in the back of the tube.  For this reason, the bag is loaded separate.  Written evidence of the two-step loading process is hard to find but please see: 

French, Barry & Hunt; The 1864 Field Artillery Tactics. Page 8
“The ammunition for rifled guns is not “fixed,” and the projectile do not have a sabot.”
*Please note that the sabot referred to in the quote is a wooden sabot like those on fixed smoothbore ammunition.  The expanding iron, lead and brass parts that took to the rifling on a rifled projectile that we commonly call a sabot today, was often referred to as “packing” in 1864.

&

Grandchamp, The boys of Adams’ Battery G. Page 27
“The rifle required two actions to be loaded; Number Five first had to bring a linen powder bag to Two which had to be rammed home before Seven brought the round up.”
**The numbers referred to are the numbers given to men in the gun crew.

John, I’ll post some information on the Taylor modifications next chance I get.     As Pete stated, these modifications don’t play a part with the tin straps in question.


Doug

CarlS

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Re: Those Pesky Little X's
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2012, 10:30:44 PM »
Do we know if powder bags were ever attached, i.e. fixed, to any shell besides cannon balls?  And I mean 'know' not 'think' or 'assume' because that's what we've always heard.  I don't recall any evidence of it.  With all the odd leftover stuff we have where is an example of a fixed shell or an image of one?   Does it even make sense to have a fixed rifled shell as this implies a fixed amount of powder?  Didn't they adjust both charge amount and elevation with range?  Sorry for so many questions and no answers. 

I'd also like to see a picture of a Dyer with longer staps on it to hold a powder charge.  On every one I've seen the staps are always the same length to form the 'X'and the ends are buried in the base.  They don't appear to be broken or rusted off.  For this reason I tend to lean toward the theory presented that they are there to strenghten the base to better withstand the blast.

Great discussion and I'm looking forward to hearing more input. 
Best,
Carl

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Those Pesky Little X's
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2012, 05:08:35 PM »
Carl said:

Quote
  On every one I've seen the staps are always the same length to form the 'X'and the ends are buried in the base.  They don't appear to be broken or rusted off.  For this reason I tend to lean toward the theory presented that they are there to strenghten the base to better withstand the blast.
Great discussion and I'm looking forward to hearing more input. 

     Carl, I am glad you brought up that important point.  Below are some examples that show the "X" straps submerged below the surface of the lead sabot cup.  If under the lead solder, how could ends be long enough to tie on a powder bag? Even the sabot marked A only has two ends barely showing.

Best Regards,
John aka Bart
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 08:58:28 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

emike123

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Re: Those Pesky Little X's
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2012, 06:40:22 PM »
Posting this for John:


Dave the plumber

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Re: Those Pesky Little X's
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2012, 08:12:16 PM »
     I have no opinion or knowledge on this subject.  Sorry.

        You boys hash it out, and call me when you got it figured !!      And remember, no fighting or name calling - this is for the good of us all !! Play nice.......

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Those Pesky Little X's
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2012, 08:45:45 PM »
Dave,
  Hopefully, you can look at the posts and draw your own conclusions. I don't believe this post is a contest.  Discussion is being prresented in a gentlemanly manner in hopes of arriving at a solution.  You need to go back to the very beginning of this subject in order to see where it is now.  In situations where there is no apparent documentation on a particular projectile we have to look at what material is available and attempt to arrive at a logical solution. Even them we ,may be wrong, but that is what makes a Forum interesting.
With Good Intentions,
Regards,
John

« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 08:51:48 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

Treadhead

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Re: Those Pesky Little X's
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2012, 08:53:03 PM »
To answer some of Carl’s questions, the powder charge of the 3-inch Ordnance rifle is set at one pound.  That is so the gunner could refer to a range chart mounted on the limber chest lid to help determine elevation and time of flight after estimating the range.  I’ve attached a drawing I’m working on.  The look and layout isn’t completely finished, but the information in the chart is accurate.  Note the projectile used to determine the statistics used on the chart was the dubious Dyer case shot.

Is there any evidence that they ever “fixed rifled ammunition?  Not to torpedo my own case, (please remember I really only playing the Devil’s Advocate here) I’ve seen a written reference that a small number of Hotchkiss shells were fixed and in a post war National Guard Armory.   How these shells were “fixed” I haven’t a clue.  Never say never!  I’m sure it was tried, but as far as I can tell, fixing riled ammunition just wasn’t the norm.  Pending better information of course.

The shells posted above partly buried in the solder have a lot to do with my questioning the purpose of the straps.  I have a fair amount more that show the same thing.

Dave the plumber

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Re: Those Pesky Little X's
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2012, 07:31:53 AM »
   John,
          I know, I was just poking fun at the series of ideas going around. If I had something to add, I surely would. I look forward to this discussion checking in twice daily.

alwion

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Re: Those Pesky Little X's
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2012, 11:53:09 AM »
Not really following this, and the one pic I could make out didn't seem to bear this out, but what about it just being for ths manufaturing process. Lead melts and cools quickly because of the temperatures involved. If a tin mold was used for the sabot rather than a more extensive mold for brass, maybe the straps were part of the mold, which occassionally came off  when the mold was removed and it was easier to leave them, and the rest of the time just left and imprint. would explain why you can't find them complte on a shell, and it wouldn't effect usage.

alwion

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Re: Those Pesky Little X's
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2012, 12:00:28 PM »
Oh and just to straighten me out, wasn't the little rim under some of the james shellf for a powder charge?  although I don't then understand how a fix charged would allow you to vary distance, unless the charge was minimum for firing, and a little more would add for range. ramming the shell with bagged charge might allow dropping one step in loading, since the bag would push the loose powder down and would be compacted below the bag and shell when the shell was seated. But since I don't really know anything about all this, this was just off the wall ideas and questions

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Those Pesky Little X's
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2012, 02:07:14 PM »
Sir,
    Could you explain this moulding process for us? I am curious how tin straps would be used in a mould.
John