Gwyn & Campbell and Star carbine cartridges and bullets

[mgmradio]

Haven't posted in a while, but visit daily.
 I'm working on a deal to purchase a G&C type 11 and a Starr carbine. I've seen a couple of photos of a complete Starr cartridge and have an original dropped bullet but would like to have correct measurements for the cartridge and better photos.
  I'd also like photos and measurements of a G&W cartridge and bullet if anyone has one.
Thanks in advance .
 

[CarlS]

Mike,

I looked in the most excellent 'Handbook of Civil War Bullets and Cartridges' by Jim and Dean Thomas to find what you were looking for.  There is some images of the various Starr bullets including one complete paper cartridge.  As to G&C I don't know anything about them so did not know where to focus my search.  I did not see anything obvious there referencing G&C.  I don't recall hearing of a bullet call Gwyn & Campbell.  Does the gun use something with a different name?  I'm sure one of the lead heads here will have some additional info.

[mgmradio]

Hi Carl,
  In Civil War Projectiles II  they show a Union carbine as MM5 , A Cosmopolitan MM7, a fired Gwynn and Campbell early model Mm69 and a Union Carbine late model MM120.
 the Gwenn and Campbell type II is also marked Union Rifle and is the second model Cosmopolitan.
 Confused yet ? I am. It used a linen cartridge like the Sharps and Starr.
 I don't have access to Dean and Thomases book but I have found pictures of the Starr cartridge, I just need better pictures especially of the base and need dimensions as I'm going to be making cartridges for both carbines to shoot.
 I currently shoot a Burnside, Smith and Spencer using correct style bullets and cartridges.

[CarlS]

You've gone WAY beyond my knowledge.  I generally make people anxious when I venture over to the soft metal side of the forum so I'll certainly have to wait to see what some of the more learned ones can offer.  I know one is traveling so not sure when he might see this.  I'm sure you'll get some feedback soon.

Come to the Richmond Show this weekend and I'll put one of those Thomas booklets in your library cheap!

[mgmradio]

Wish I could make it to the Richmond show, but since I moved to Arizona it's now a 36 hour drive instead of 1 1/2 hours.

[ETEX]

Mike,

Listed in the MM Supplement under MM-656 a Gwynn and Campbell Carbine is listed and shown. When comparing the Thomas Brothers Bullets and Cartridges cross reference it states the MM-656 is (FC) fired or carved. In Round Ball to Rimfire Part 4 the Gwynn and Campbell is pictured as bullet 225 under the unidentified bullets for breechloaders and muzzleloaders. It gives the size of .572 x .74 and weighing 328 grains. Hope this helps and doesn't muddy the water more.

Michael

[mgmradio]

Michael, I believe that both of those bullets are Miss identified. The diameter is excessive . The original should be about .525 with a weight of 390gr.
 I'm actively looking for a complete linen cartridge for this carbine.

[ETEX]

Mike, I believe the bullet was misidentified in the MM but Dean lists the bullet as unidentified. I just checked the measurements on the bullet in my collection and it measures at .562 by .723 with a weight of 302 grains. Whatever the bullet is it is a tough one to come by.

[Jim T]

The Starr cartridge is linen, not paper, but for the Starr carbine you could easily use a Sharps cartridge.

The "Gwyn and Campbell" is confusing because depending on who was referencing it (currently or back during the Civil War) Gwyn & Campbell, Union, and Cosmopolitan were all used to refer to the same gun.

The proper bullet (definately not MM#656) is the TT#88 (MM#12 if you insist on using a reference current in 1975) which also utilized a lined case (as illustrated with TT#88). My specimen measures .538 x .88 and is 380 grains. 

As far as cartridge construction specifications, I will look to see is there are drawings in the Pitman Notes, Vol 1.

[mgmradio]

Michael, Thank you for the clarification.

Jim, I know that both cartridges were linen . Most of the problems in the field with the Starr carbine was caused by using Sharps cartridges instead of the proper ones. The sharps bullet was to small and would slide to far down the barrel causing to great a gap between the breach and the base of the cartridge, causing a misfire . Also the Sharps bullet would not engage the rifling correctly greatly affecting accuracy.
 I'm pretty sure that MM12 is not the correct bullet. I'll know later in the week when I'm able to measure the actual gun.
  Sorry I can't reference the TT books as I don't have them.
  Here are what I have for pictures of the cartridges. I also believe that the boxed ones are not of the Civil War configuration.

[Jim T]

Where are you getting this info?   Luckily where I work, I have access to many CW guns.  So, I just went over and picked up two G&C carbines and the bores at the muzzle are .50 exactly.  Can't measure the breech because there is no room there, but I cannot see how any of these bullets can be too small.

[mgmradio]

Sorry Jim, I corrected the above post to indicate the Starr carbine and the problem with the issued Sharps cartridges.
 The measurements of the bullet in your collection appears to be to large in diameter to properly fit the G&C . The bullet in the cartridge pictured matches exactly with MM7 and at this point in time I’m fairly certain it’s the correct bullet , but will know more after I’m able to measure the bore and rifling in the original.
 Dose anyone have or know anyone with an original cartridge? There were approximately 6,000,000 of them delivered to the gov’t.

[Jim T]

You are correct, MM#7 is the Cosmo bullet.  In my previous post I was guessing at the number from memory.

See attached pics. One of my trays of carbine ammunition and a close up of the Cosmo cartridge.  The bullet on top is from G&C and the bottom is machine pressed from St. Louis Arsenal; has small "dimple" on base.   (Starr cartridges off to the left of Cosmo cartridges).

G&C supplied the Ordnance Department 5.6 million cartridges and the St. Louis Arsenal made 1.3 million.

[mgmradio]

Fantastic Jim. There really are some of these cartridges out there. Would it be possible for you to post exact measurements of the G&C Bullets and cartridge? I want to make a mould for it and duplicate the cartridge for shooting.
  I'm in the process of doing the same for my Starr carbine. I have an original Starr bullet that I dug and a St Louis cartridge I recently picked up.
  Here are the carbines I finally picked up yesterday.