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Author Topic: Interior photo of segmented Selma  (Read 15553 times)

speedenforcer

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2017, 04:51:03 PM »
carl, im pretty sure you can find one of those cameras on amazon, wish or geek. if not I have seen advertising for them on face book as well
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

Woodenhead

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2017, 08:38:00 PM »
Selma Hunter, I look forward to your book. When I checked out the G.G. museum's website, I found this photo showing a stack of 20 pounder Read-Parrotts recovered when they excavated the fort's ammo dump. How in the name of panty lines did Tom Dickey and friends miss them? One or two look like the rebated body style you have in your collection, Carl, while the rest appear similar to the smooth-sided 20 pounder with the big fuze plug I showed earlier in this thread. I know the resolution of the picture is not the best but they do seem to have similar elongated noses with no raised lathe keys. The copper sabots also appear similar - cast brass with deep, flat iron base knobs.

The battle records confirm the presence of several 10 and 20 pounders at Grand Gulf. I think they had a single 30 pounder Parrott. Churchill & Co. was also making this large caliber with copper sabots at this time. I believe they are the legendary "Grand Gulf 30 Pounders." Churchill must have rushed the production of these copper-saboted shells because they got no iron from the CS govt. until late February 1863. That may explain the wood fuze plugs. Nonetheless, their surviving invoices show large production levels that would have easily allowed them to deliver more than 500 to 1,000 of these shells to the Mississippi River forts in time for the April 29, 1863, battle. I realize that bunches of CS Parrott shells probably came from other foundries. In fact, Augusta's production and delivery of 20 pounders (and other calibers) to the defenses of the Vicksburg theater is well documented. Most of Augusta's went to the Army of Northern Virginia, however, and this style was not theirs.

Pictured below are two CS 20 pounder Read-Parrotts dug in Virginia that have matching rebated bodies and thick cast copper sabots. The first was found by Harry Ridgeway around Winchester. The second by Mac Mason in the Richmond/Petersburg arena. This rebated version far less common. These, and the numerous similar copper-saboted 20 pounders with smooth bearing surfaces that have been dug in VA, are what has led me to Selma and Churchill. I think they came from the same Deep South foundry and no one was making more of this style than Churchill. I was hoping the 1 1/2 inch diameter fuze heads on some of them would help with their identification. It may yet. It looks like both versions are included in the display case from the Grand Gulf Museum and I'm hoping we can tie one or both styles to Churchill.

Woodenhead

relicrunner

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2017, 06:13:30 PM »
I wonder if this 20lber frag can add to the discussion. This was recovered from Cold Harbor in the 1970's. The base is a full 2" thick with an inside flat bottom. The casting is somewhat off center with the thickest wall being about .680" and the thin side about .370".

relicrunner

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2017, 06:14:47 PM »
another view

Woodenhead

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2017, 02:38:44 AM »
You have the base of a 20 pounder Read-Parrott cast in Richmond by Samson & Pae. It base and sabot are identical to a number of marked 20 pdrs. made by S & P. One is pictured below and I have 3 views of another dug at Cold Harbor by Mac Mason stamped with their letter "H". A few 10 pdr. Parrotts stamped with the identical "H" were also marked "S & P" on the bearing surface. The raised square air vent on a low convex base knob is a feature commonly seen on S & P's 10 and 20 pounder Read-Parrotts. Sometimes the impression is perfect. Often it is sloppy or the pour was stopped before it filled out the square shape. I haven't noted this feature on anyone else's shells. It served no particular purpose other than representing their moulder's technique for setting up the pour. Its wrought iron sabot was struck in a die made by Samson & Pae using hammered iron which explains its uneven thickness. Good quality rolled iron was not available from the nearby Tredegar Iron Works. There was simmering hostility because Tredegar was constantly trying to lure away S & P's skilled craftsmen - many reportedly trained in Europe.

Samson & Pae was a primary source of 20 pdr Read-Parrotts supplied to the Army of No. VA from late 1862 thru mid-1864. Note their December 1863 invoice below reporting the production of 1140 - 20 pdr. Parrott shells. The copper fuze in the example below should limit production prior to May 1864 when wood fuze replacements were prescribed by the Richmond Arsenal. A few months later, Col. Broun ordered them to be made shorter to limit their tendency to tumble. Just above the Parrott listing on the invoice is "142 - 12 pdr. Blakely shells." These were the smooth-sided shells with copper sabots and raised lathe keys by the fuze hole I pictured in a recent posting. Only Samson & Pae made this caliber in VA. A couple of rows down is "132 - 3 inch Navy Parrotts." It appears that only Samson & Pae made these slightly larger Parrott shells for the CS Army in VA. The banded guns had been made for the Navy's fleet of small gunboats. A handful were borrowed by the Army in late 1862 and kept in service.

Woodenhead

relicrunner

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2017, 10:49:53 AM »
Great info...thank you!

relicrunner

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2017, 07:32:26 PM »
This type of shell is what started this whole discussion. This 20lb base frag was recovered at Peachtree Creek, Atlanta. Trying to find out what CS artillery battery fired these 20lbers. Amazing to me that the casting is so off center.

Woodenhead

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2017, 01:06:49 PM »
You have the base of a 20 pounder Read-Parrott made by Augusta during the spring of 1864. Only Augusta had special permission from Richmond (documented in March 1863) to employ segmented interiors. The concept was probably derived from the imported Britten ammunition which was highly regarded. Except for their 10 pdr Parrott (and maybe their 2.5 inch Reads and 2.25 inch Mullanes), Augusta cast all of their field caliber ammunition with these shaped interior ridges. That includes Whitworths dug at Banks Ford and Gettysburg, Col. Beimeck's 3.5 inch CS copies of the Britten, all of the smooth-sided 3.5 inch Reads made by Augusta for the Blakely Rifle, and the limited quantities of variant 3.3, 3.67 and 3.8 inch Reads they made. I'm probably missing a few but it definitely includes their 3 inch Reads and Brouns which is where this conversation began with Steve Phillips' Selma shell. The point I wanted to make is that a segmented interior means Augusta made it. This is not so much my expert opinion as it is a fact clearly stated in the contemporary documents now readily available on the internet. I am far from the most knowledgeable about everything done at Selma, but I do know that hours before the city fell, the contents of Augusta's store house arrived at Selma for safe keeping. I don't believe that was understood when Tom and Pete wrote The Book.

Additional evidence is the sabot. Rains and Girardey were constantly working on improving the sabots of all field caliber Rifle ammunition during the winter of 1863-64. They conducted extensive field trials and published the findings of a Board of Artillery Officers in response to a flurry of complaints about their failure rate. This especially applied to the 10 and 20 pounder Read-Parrotts which tumbled much too frequently. What they came up with was the high-band copper sabot you have on your 20 pounder fragment. Note its remarkable similarity to the original Read sabots like those made in Mississippi, Alabama, and Tennessee during 1862. Dr. Read's work was ignored by the Richmond authorities and the inventor withdrew from active duty when the terrible Mullane with its Tennessee sabot was adopted as the official regulation round for all calibers in early 1862. It wasn't until the winter of 1863-64 that Augusta finally recognized the critical importance of a high-band sabot to capture the lateral pressure of the propellant charge to force it into the cannon's grooves. One important difference, however, Augusta's improved sabots were constructed of rigid cast copper, not rolled copper as Dr. Read intended. Hence, Augusta had to carefully machine their sabots to an even thickness while the original Reads were die-struck allowing greater tensil strength and flexibility. In one of his letters, Col. Rains mentions adding three holes (as seen on the winter 1863-64 Augusta sabot below) to secure their sabots. The original field-caliber Read's copper cups had only two holes. Some of them had no holes or slots extending from the center hole. What I'm describing here is one of the great tragedies of Confederate ordnance production. Dr. Read made a determined effort to outfit all of the South's foundries with the best and most modern projectiles but his work was largely ignored by the Ordnance Bureau. Battle opportunities on land and sea were lost on account of this foolish oversight.

Below is an excavated 3 inch Broun shell and a matching fragment alongside. This was Augusta's altered design they came up with after receiving official drawings for the Virginia Broun shell from the Richmond Arsenal in early 1864. The smooth fuze hole made for a wood fuze plug dates production from May 1864 or later. By contrast, Steve Phillips 3 inch Broun is threaded dating it from the start of the year. These Deep South pieces were photo'ed by Charlie Harris. The second image is an intact (copper sabot missing) 3 inch Broun shell from the Richmond/Petersburg area. They are especially rare because Augusta never made a lot of them. The third photo shows the improved Augusta cast-in cup sabot from early 1864. Note how well its evenly machined high-band bearing surface took the rifling grooves. The extra deep groove around the top of the bearing surface was a feature only seen on Augusta's sabots. I strongly suspect it was intended for tying on the cartridge bag. Since early 1863, Augusta was the only arsenal that regularly fixed its field caliber Rifle ammunition. "Fixed" was specifically mentioned in correspondence and on some of their invoices. If not the case, then it should be a lubrication groove. That was an oft-stated concern of theirs. No where from Richmond to the Deep South have I found any mention of anti-chipping provisions. Yes, they were concerned about the tendency to chip, known as "spalling", but given the quality of their iron, they felt helpless to do anything about it.

Woodenhead


Steve Phillips

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2017, 05:43:26 PM »
Woodenhead I hate to say this but you are just wrong. The segmented projectiles were made at Selma. I have several unfinished and they were not shipped from Georgia. Selma was the big one other than Richmond. The iron mostly came from Alabama iron works and was sent to Selma and around Selma to be made into the finished products.

Woodenhead

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2017, 10:07:31 AM »
Steve, allow me to repeat the words of Selma Hunter: No, the [Army] arsenal in Selma didn't operate a foundry for casting field caliber projectiles (or the larger for that matter) projectiles. All of the original documents I've found confirm this statement. Re-read Dean Thomas's chapter on Selma in Vol III of Confederate Arsenals, Laboratories, and Ordnance Depots. They did small castings like bullets and Bormann fuses, but no shells. They did finish, arm and issue thousands from other arsenals and private contractors, but they did not make them on-site. The thousands found and destroyed by the Yankees at the end of the war had been produced by the Naval Ordnance Works and threatened arsenals and depots that sent them to Selma for safekeeping. I found a letter describing the journey of the stores and equipment of Augusta arriving at Selma days before its surrender. That is probably where your "Selma Read" originated. Selma made no segmented shells. Only Augusta did and they made very few in 1864 which helps explain their rarity. Shortly before Gen. Forrest received the two 3 inch Rifles that fired many of those segmented Broun shells, Augusta sent two 2.25 inch Mountain Rifles to him along with the little Mullane shells also made by Augusta. Although they never arrived, the shipment is documented. I haven't found the proof that Augusta sent its segmented 3 inch ammo to Forrest because the trail of invoices and correspondence pretty much goes dark after the summer of 1864.

Despite how previous books label your 3 inch "Selma Read," it is clearly a Broun shell. In early 1864, drawings of this new pattern were sent to all of the producing arsenals by W. Leroy Broun's Richmond Arsenal. Its single wide bourrelet and especially the distinctive cast-on high-band sabot can be nothing but a "Broun."

Document no. 1 is a typical Selma invoice dated August 15, 1862, listing items sent to Chattanooga. I have downloaded about 50 similar documents. No evidence in any of shell production. Many of the items were contracted from the nearby shops and ironworks. It appears that the only one making shells for Selma was Churchill & Co.

Document no. 2 is the only evidence I found that Selma might have made some field caliber ammunition. It is a March 14, 1864, report of experiments at Macon with wooden fuzes replacing copper fuze plugs in shells. A directive had come from Richmond that this change was impending. The second grouping of 10 pdr. Parrotts (nos. 4 - 7) lists "Selma Arsenal" under "Where & By Whom Made." This is the only suggestion I've found of actual shell production by the Arsenal. However, at this time Churchill was delivering more than 500 - 10 pounders to Selma every month for arming and issuing.

Document no. 3 is packed with great information about the state of Deep South shell production in early 1864. Dated Feb. 12, 1864, it is a letter from Augusta's commander Col Rains to Maj. Mallet, Superintendent of CS Laboratories at Macon. These two men were perhaps the top two ordnance experts in the Confederacy. The letter primarily discusses problems with the 10 pdr. Read-Parrott ammunition which had performed so poorly in the recent loses at Chattanooga and Knoxville. It begins with the following declaration by Rains critical to our understanding of the segmented shells. I believe I neglected to state..., that all the Rifle and field Battery shells made at this Arsenal [Augusta] for nearly one year have been polygonal or ribbed on the interior with the single exception of the 10 Pdr. Parrott. The polygonal core was formally adopted by Richmond and prescribed for all arsenals. The "ribbed" or star cavity was never adopted as part of an official pattern. All the evidence supports my contention that only Augusta made these.
Although not relevant to our Selma Read discussion, an additional observation by Col. Rains is worth noting: From the experiments at the Arsenal with this shell [10 pdr. Parrott], a large proportion failed to go end foremost or in other words turned over in their flight notwithstanding that on recovery the cups or saucers were found perfectly rifled thus ensuring the rifling motion. Rains concluded that the shells were too long. This observation helps explain why the length of the Virginia 3 inch Brouns was reduced in early 1864 and some of the foundries shortened the length of their 10 pdr. Parrotts from mid-1864 until the end of the war. Note that Rains reports turning down some of his 3 inch shells to 2.9 inch and firing them from Parrott Rifles with good effect.

Woodenhead

Steve Phillips

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2017, 10:07:47 AM »
That is not a real picture of Selma. Selma was not a just a warehouse. If you will just think of where the raw iron ore came from and the difficulty of getting it to Georgia you can see why Selma was second only to Tredegar in Richmond and by 1864 was the main producer of ordnance for the Confederacy. Selma area had over 10,000 workers producing for the Confederacy. Alabama produced more iron ore than all the other states combined and most of that was within 50 miles of Selma. The railroad was never complete between Selma and Georgia. Different gauge tracks and part of it was a wagon road. Selma made four or five ships and one or more submarines. It along with Tredegar made the biggest and strongest guns. CS forces and employees had been destroying or shipping out munitions for about a week before the Yankees got to Selma and after the surrender the Yankees continued the destruction and destroyed another  60,000 artillery projectiles and 2,000,000 small arm ammunition. Augusta mostly made powder along with some other products but it never compared to Selma. Bill Lockridge should tell more about Selma.

Selma Hunter

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2017, 10:47:03 AM »
Mike,

After weighing your latest post and some of the conclusions therein I have to offer my thoughts on your considered opinion.  You are a recognized expert on many things related to this war and you have certainly been working at it far longer than I have.  However, I know of no other person who has put the time and effort into a careful study of Selma as have I for the past 13 years.  And these last 13 years have been every day, all day.  Not classroom hours or incidental studies.  Along the way I have also had an opportunity to study other topics although most of those (i.e. naval affairs at Hampton Roads, Mobile Bay, ironclads, etc.) connect to Selma in one way or another hence my interest.  The research has introduced me to many new friends and serious researchers as well. When I began this study it was my misinformed opinion that all Selma records had been destroyed explaining why the story of Selma was largely told from oral history, family letters and incidental records from oblique sources.  Then I heard about a college paper by Mr. Earnest B. Johnson, Jr. formerly of Selma.  Having found him after some searching he provided the first key to the first door opened for my work.  All Selma records had NOT been lost when the city was sacked during Wilson's vengeance raid although almost all local records had been destroyed.  The papers of the Naval Gun Foundry & Ordnance Works and the Selma Arsenal survived in part because they were GOVERNMENT offices.  Letter books, financial records and some other correspondence survived as there were duplicate copies of many if not most of these documents elsewhere.  Private property and accompanying records were destroyed when the yankees burned the town.  Columbiana, Alabama, is located about 65 miles north of Selma by modern road routes.  The travel distance in 1865 would have been closer to 80 miles due to the layout of the Alabama & Tennessee Rivers Rail Road which served as the primary link between Selma and C. B. Churchill, Co. then located in Columbiana.  Most of the smaller furnaces located up the line produced raw pig iron which was sold to manufacturers in Selma, Columbus, Georgia, Atlanta, etc.  The C. B. Churchill Company was a highly capable manufacturer whose product is well and widely recognized from their previous activities in Natchez, and Corinth, Mississippi.  The fact that the man who was arguably the best furnace master in North America at the time worked for them speaks volumes about the firm.  George Peacock, because of his reputation, had been hired away from the Churchill firm shortly after Catesby Jones took over the operation of the NGF&OW in Selma.  Jones and the Navy agreed to pay Peacock 1/3 again more than Jones himself was being paid to command the facility.  So it is clear to history that the Churchill firm was both highly capable in terms of finished product AND 3 to 4 days march removed from the sacking of Selma when Wilson arrived (Upton’s cavalry did destroy the facilities of the Churchill company on or about the 30th).
Contrary to the official versions of events, the yankee soldiers had been teased for many months with the promise of Selma as a prize ever since Grant and the army had agreed to the creation of Wilson’s cavalry unit.  During their entire time camped near Waterloo/Gravelly Springs waiting for suitable circumstances (weather, supplies, etc.) Wilson had promised Selma as the reward for their patience.  After all, the yankees had been frustrated in their failure to capture Selma since it had become such a huge thorn in their backsides since early in 1862.  So the stage was set for what actually did take place beginning April 2, 1865.  The battle was short but sharp and all unfiltered accounts tell of a scene similar to the sacking of Atlanta.  Soldiers, in many cases drunk on stolen whisky, when loosed on the town set fires, despoiled homes and stores, killed all animals and livestock, spoiled food stocks, abused women and continued to do so for at least three days until the pleas of locals finally caused Wilson to rein in his unruly mob – to a degree.  Now in this process it is clear from the unofficial and the OFFICIAL records that the troops destroyed all local industrial activities as such were deemed to be “of military value”.  These places of business were in Selma, not in a place 3 or 4 days away (Wilson reports that his troops averaged 18.75 miles per day during his raid).  Other than some financial records from the Army Ordnance records there was little left to record the business activities of these individual facilities. 
The bottom line is that while the town of Selma itself was home to at least 7 individual foundries and machine shops there were at least another half dozen furnaces north of town also producing iron and product for the Selma shops.   Now, in my humble opinion, it is difficult to construct any concept of Selma and her role in the production of munitions that doesn’t include the production of massive quantities of artillery ammunition (Winslow reports over 66,000 rounds destroyed) being produced there.  Add to this the archeological evidence resulting from the recovery of thousands of these rounds from the river there since at least as far back as 1959, it is obvious that there is much that happened there that has not yet or may never be fully recognized.
Now, to address the idea that Selma did not or could not manufacture segmented shells I think it is worth noting that of the total of 15-18 of the 3.67” segmented “Broun” shells known to exist were found in Selma (I could throw a rock to within 50 feet of the recovery location) it is difficult for me to understand why such projectiles would have been sent to Selma from elsewhere in such limited quantities.  Field recoveries do not lead one to believe that these projectiles were ever widely distributed.  On the other hand, shipping such a small quantity for examination/copying is counter-intuitive as samples were routinely sent to Mallet in Macon for evaluation. 
If one believes everything one reads then I would urge caution in some sources.  There is a well and widely known book cataloging cannon of that war.  In the passages about Selma, and in telcons with one of the authors, the Selma Naval Gun Foundry was said to be ineffective and in many ways a failure.  I could not disagree more.  The actual facts speak for themselves and it is no longer necessary to argue over the recognized superiority of the guns made there. 
Lastly, one truth that I have discovered in the course of my work is that each time it appears that the sources of archival/archeological evidence on Selma have been exhausted something new appears.  In 2012 it was my great pleasure to receive copies of another trove of the CSN ordnance files when a carton with six 2 1/2 “ three ring binders arrived from a fellow researcher.  Were there duplicates of some of my files?  Yes. But there were also documents such as the shop notes of Jones dating from before the war until well afterwards. These notes detailed skills and knowledge beyond what many would have considered possible for the time.  That there are documents referencing segmented shells from Augusta or anywhere else does not preclude the manufacturing of similar projectiles in Selma - or elsewhere for that matter.  It is my intention to continue my research focus on Selma and to advocate for facts – archival or archeological.  In the meantime the evidence indicates that these segmented projectiles WERE made in Selma – perhaps not exclusively but nevertheless, some, at least, were made there. 
Again, it is both dangerous to the writer and a disservice to history to assume facts. So, were segmented Broun shells made exclusively in Augusta? Given the skills and capabilities along with the recovery evidence from Selma, I doubt so.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 09:00:45 AM by Selma Hunter »

CarlS

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2017, 09:36:39 PM »
This has to rank easily, in my opinion, at the top of the most informative discussions on this forum.  Differing opinions fuel discussion as we see here and a great deal of quality information is being shared as a result.  Many thanks to all that have contributed and I look forward to hopefully learning more.  I'm still trying to digest all this information and as my knowledge on this topic is rather shallow (although deeper thanks to this discussion) I don't have anything material to add.  I do have a question though.  With all the great amount of relics discovered at and around the Selma area including the river, have any projectile molds been found?  Any fuse molds?  In addition to a CS mold being a supremely rare and neat relic it would certainly provide some good data.

Best,
Carl

speedenforcer

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2017, 10:15:55 PM »
Are there a great deal of relics still be found in Selma or has it slowed like most places. not to worry I do not plan on coming and looking, I was just curious.
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

Steve Phillips

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2017, 05:34:20 AM »
Carl, I think the pattern for shells would be made of wood and the actual mold would be sand.