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Author Topic: Interior photo of segmented Selma  (Read 15552 times)

Steve Phillips

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2017, 11:45:12 PM »
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Steve Phillips

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2017, 11:46:30 PM »
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Steve Phillips

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2017, 11:47:26 PM »
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Steve Phillips

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2017, 11:48:08 PM »
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Woodenhead

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2017, 01:01:09 AM »
Finally, some meat on the bone. My big awareness while researching was that the Army's Selma Arsenal did not appear to produce any shells. But I can see that your concept of "Selma" included the entire operation including the many local private contractors. That's legitimate. Let's take a close look at their operations and see if we can account for who was making bayonets, bits, buckles, etc. I'll post the letter describing the last train to Selma full of Augusta's munitions, tools, etc. This has the potential of greatly increasing our knowledge of who made what.

W.H.

redbob

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2017, 07:43:53 AM »
An  interesting, informative and very appreciated post for someone with an interest in Selma.

Selma Hunter

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2017, 10:20:08 AM »
All,
The term "Selma Arsenal" has been repeated to such an extent that the true story has been obscured by the many misconceptions that have resulted from the assumption that EVERYTHING that happened in Selma was connected to the Army Arsenal. Not so.  Selma was in actuality a wide network of business, industry and military activity engaged in almost every aspect and element of wartime production.  Food, forage, cotton, etc. were clearly the focus of the local agricultural interests.   Local industry manufactured almost everything that was needed by the troops in the field.  Shovels, picks, pots, pans, horseshoes, nails, etc.  and many other essentials were made, warehoused and shipped from the central location throughout the war.  It was one of the two gateways that served the Department of Alabama, Mississippi, Eastern Louisiana and Western Tennessee.  This is a region I have called the “Trans- Chattahoochee” since that neatly sums it up geographically.  The other gateway was down the railroad to the Tensaw landing (Mobile Bay) and across the bay by boat to Mobile and the Mobile & Ohio RR.  This entire story is told in my book (out of print) on Selma.  The title speaks for itself. ..

THE UNTOLD STORY OF CIVIL WAR SELMA, ALABAMA AS A CENTER OF MANUFACTURING, TRANSPORTATION, SHIPBUILDING AND LOGISTICS DURING THE WAR OF NORTHERN AGGRESSION – 1861-1865.

Military goods of all description were also procured from the many local businesses there.  As one of the only sources within the South able to produce highest quality iron following a calamitous spring of 1862 Selma became even more critical to the war effort.  As early as May 1862 the Army moved the federal Mt. Vernon Arsenal to Selma and began production of cartridges and all manner of pyrotechnics.  Old flintlocks were converted to percussion ignition and guns of every kind captured, gleaned or otherwise obtained were repaired and returned to useful service.  Selma had and has a very well qualified community of gunsmiths dating to the early 1850’s.  Their services proved useful to the cause.  Much of the artillery ammunition that flowed through Selma originated from contractors operating furnaces elsewhere – mostly north of the city in the Cahaba River basin.  The C. B. Churchill Company in Columbiana, AL was one such firm.  The available invoices and records reflect everything from 6 lbr balls to 12 lbr Whitworth bolts to 10” shells – to name a few. 

The CS Navy had established a shipyard there in 1862 based on the recommendations of Ebenezer Farrand.  By the time the shipyard had built the 4 ironclads eventually produced in Selma slips Farrand was long gone to Mobile where he succeeded Franklin Buchanan as flotilla commander following the Battle of Mobile Bay in August 1864.   Selma also produced a very cleverly designed submarine with both steam and hand crank propulsion.  This was accomplished by a civilian named Halligan.  The Saint Patrick saw service in Mobile Bay in 1865.

The story of the Navy Gun Foundry and Ordnance Works is set forth in a 10 page article in the current issue of “The Artilleryman Magazine”.  As a military facility beginning in February 1863,  under the supervision of Catesby ap R. Jones (yes, Hampton Roads & the ironclads Jones) in June 1863, Selma produced and shipped 79 large siege, seacoast and naval guns during the 21 months the gun foundry operated – about 1 per week.  These guns were acclaimed as being the best of their class made anywhere in the world. 

The railroads in Selma along with the extensive river traffic served as vital arteries of support both in moving troops and materials throughout the war.  The Military Depot there allowed for needed supplies to be sent south or west to the points of need within a few days.  The story goes on and on, but by now you get the picture.

I have just gone back and read the latest postings by Mike and Steve and I would advise Mike (and everyone else) to pay close attention to what Steve is telling you. No, the arsenal in Selma didn’t operate a foundry for casting field caliber (or larger for that matter) projectiles.  There were, however, numerous PRIVATE business concerns doing so and submitting their products to the Army for approval and payment.  On the subject of Col. White.  He was a difficult and very one sided person to deal with.  Jones, Brooke and everyone else who dealt with him found him difficult to the point of being obstructive to the war effort.  He was eventually (November 1864?) removed from command for such reasons – by his army superiors.    I also believe that if you dig deep enough into the history of Mr. George Peacock (CNGFOW furnace master) you will find that he held a number of patents for casting shells.  A detailed study would be appropriate.  To my knowledge the CNGFOW never cast any projectiles smaller than VI.4” or 32lbr. 

Lastly, of all the correspondence of that war that I have seen there are so very many that are flawed as to content, conclusions, fulfillment of intentions, etc.   It would behoove all of us to recognize that a conclusion by one man doesn’t guarantee accuracy.  I point to Maj. George Rains’ opinion that Selma was not a good location for a naval gun foundry hence his rapid departure following his assignment as the initial commandant. 

I have both seen and handled hundreds upon hundreds of Selma made and/or recovered artifacts.  Enough so to understand that those who have not taken the time to acquaint themselves with the FACTUAL history of that place will likely fail to ever understand what really happened there. 

Bottom line, not everything meaningful in that war happened east of the Chattahoochee River.  That war was fought in the east and lost in the Trans-Chattahoochee.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 03:24:02 PM by Selma Hunter »

divedigger

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2017, 11:00:50 AM »
eye opening accounts from several esteemed sources. Thanks for making me aware of contributions from other places I never thought about. All areas did their part to contribute to the war effort but not much is known unless you really dig into it. Thanks for adding to the data base guys

Woodenhead

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2017, 08:04:38 PM »
Selma Hunter, thanks for that highly informative reply. You packed a great deal of relevant information into a few paragraphs. And who would know better than the guy who wrote a book about Selma. By the way. can I buy a copy directly from you. If not, I can probably find a copy on the internet.

I had already found Churchill's correspondence and invoices in the Citizens File. Are more available anywhere else? Were any other foundries contracted directly by the Army's Arsenal at Selma to produce field-caliber shells? What about the Selma Iron Works? Is there a record of Selma sending shells to Virginia? If this is covered in your book, just tell me and I'll wait until I get a copy.

My primary interest here involves figuring out who made the copper saboted (and all others that can be identified) shells (primarily 3 inch Reads and 10 & 20 pounder Read-Parrotts) dug in Virginia in sites beginning with Chancellorsville, Gettysburg, and on thru the final battles at Petersburg. They are not common, but among the tens of thousands found in the last 50 years, a few distinct patterns with copper sabots keep showing up. Many came from the Augusta Arsenal which sent many, and possibly a majority, of their Reads and Read-Parrotts to Virginia in 1863 and early 1864. I am getting close to singling those patterns out. But there are others, like the 20 pdr. Read-Parrotts shown below, that I suspect came from Churchill & Co. It has a sleek shape with an oblong nose and no lathe key. Its thick copper sabot may not have been pre-rifled but still the malleable metal took the 5 grooves quite well. It has a sturdy "wafer" style iron base knob. I have photographed identical examples dug by friends at Brandy Station (pre-rifled by a chisel in the field) and Gettysburg. The example pictured below was one of several dug at June 1864 Cold Harbor (this one by Gary Williams). My research indicates all copper saboted Read-Parrotts came from Deep South foundries. The invoices suggest Churchill & Co. produced several thousand of these and yet there were few 20 pounder Parrott guns in that region. I don't think the Army of Tenn. had any until the Atlanta Campaign. I don't know about Mobile and the other fortifications.

One final clue - look at the size and shape of the copper fuze plug. It has a thin head with two tiny spanner holes very close to the central opening. Its diameter is 1 1/2 inches instead of the usual 1 1/4 inch of the standard fuze plugs. I have seen a couple of others with this oversized fuze plug. I'm hoping somebody out there knows something about these plugs that will connect it with Churchill or Selma. One factor that may be relevant is that Churchill sent many of its projectiles to Selma "unfinished." In that case, Selma would have turned and tapped them, and acquired or made the fuze plugs. Or perhaps these extra large plugs were provided by the adjacent Naval Works as I suspect they were intended for large caliber shells.

Woodenhead

Woodenhead

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2017, 09:19:18 PM »
Here are the photos accompanying the previous post. The Churchill & Co. invoice is one of many specifically mentioning the "copper sabots" on their 10, 20 & 30 pounder Parrotts. The 20 pounder from Cold Harbor, pictured below, is one of two patterns found in VA sites dating 1963-64.

Selma Hunter

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2017, 08:27:07 AM »
Briefly,

My recollection is that they (Churchill) charged $0.35 for threading a Bormann fuze hole and $0.05 for threading the underplug hole.  I have that one in my loose-leaf files somewhere.

Woodenhead

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2017, 10:06:32 AM »
While located in Mississippi, Churchill & Co. sent thousands of field and large caliber shells to the Columbus Arsenal in "unfinished" condition. Like Adolphus Rahm in Virginia, they also delivered finished shells. See invoices below. After relocating to Alabama in mid-1862, it appears they finished most or all of their projectiles, bored and threaded fuze holes and even inserted many of the brass underplugs in their Bormann-fuzed 6 and 12 pounders. However, its clear from their production records preserved in the Citizens File that they sent their shells to Selma without fuzes. Although the Army's Selma Arsenal had no large iron foundry, they could and probably did make Bormann fuzes and copper fuze plugs. If necessary, I suspect they could easily get extras from the adjacent Naval Works.

So, that brings us back to the 20 pounder Read-Parrotts (and some 10 pounders) found in VA with these distinctive oversized fuze plugs. I believe they are a style found in large caliber CS Navy shells. If so, then it reinforces the likelihood that Churchill made the numerous shells with those fuzes dug in both 1863 & 1864 sites in VA. It should be noted that most of their copper-saboted pattern have the standard CS copper fuze plugs with approx. 1 1/4 inch diameter flanges. Churchill's bi-weekly reports for 1863-64 (many, but fewer than half, survive) show the largest production level of 20 pounders of any Deep South foundry. More than 500 were made during many two-week periods. The Army of Tenn. had no 20 pounders until the Atlanta Campaign. At that time, Macon began casting and delivering 20 pounder ammunition to the army. Earlier, Longstreet had two while fighting around Chattanooga and Knoxville. Both blew up. Maybe there were a few of those guns at Mobile or one of the other fortified positions but I haven't noticed that in any of the records. The only other Deep South arsenal casting sizable quantities of 20 pounders during the 1863-64 period was Augusta and the shipment to VA of many (possibly the majority) of those is well documented. Theirs is the second common pattern found from Gettysburg to Cold Harbor.

My point here is that I am finding it possible by comparing the extensive written records with the evidence from the ground to identify most field caliber ( and many of the heavy) as to who made them and when. In Virginia, we could label almost any of the iron-saboted Read-Parrotts and 3 inch Read shells "Richmond Arsenal" shells. The Arsenal contracted for them, armed them and issued them to the field artillery. But there are distinctive differences from one foundry to another. In many cases it is possible to identify those made by particular firms based upon what we can learn from studying their correspondence and invoices - and then comparing that to what the earth has yielded. For example, we know that major player Samson & Pae finished all their projectiles and made their own fuzes. By contrast, Adolphus Rahm turned in thousands of unfinished shells to the Richmond Arsenal. Richmond subcontracted the finishing and fuzing to 3rd parties. One particular firm, identified in the Citizens File records, billed for threading the fuze holes and, with most of the 3 inch Reads and 10 pdr. Read-Parrotts turned over to them between Dec. 1862 and April 1863, they billed extra for boring the side holes for case-shot addition. Many, but not all, of those had been cast by Rahm. They supplied approximately 20,000 copper fuze plugs during that period. Those plugs all resemble each other. The same shop handled the re-fuzing of the 3 inch Dyers salvaged from Fredericksburg and billed for the side-holes in about 2/3 of them. No Samson & Pae projectiles had side holes. I believe some of the latter's were filled with case shot but the highly respected foundry had a way of loading them thru the fuze hole.

Really, I'm not trying to give you guys headaches. This is just the tip of the iceburg of what can be learned by comparing archival records with evidence from the ground. It is exciting! The search for answers about the origins of Virginia shells has led me to the dark waters of Selma. Let's continue.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 01:27:40 PM by CarlS »

Selma Hunter

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2017, 04:47:19 PM »
Woodenhead,

I think I can get my hands on one more copy of my book but won't know for several days.  Hang tight.  Sure do like the C. B. Churchill documents.  I do not have any of the MS docs.  Also, while some early correspondence refers to a laboratory associated with the CNGFOW there is scant if any documentation indicating that a lab was ever established.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 08:27:50 AM by Selma Hunter »

CarlS

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2017, 12:57:06 AM »
Just super information.  Thank you Steve, Mike and Bill for sharing.  A treasure trove of information.  Thank you for your passion for our hobby and your willingness to share what you've learned with the rest of us.

I found a reference to at least 1 20-lber Parrott gun at Ft Wade in the defenses at Grand Gulf, MS.  There was a large cache of 20-lber smooth sided Reads found there that are distinctive with their sides rebated (shallow and about 1" tall) with fairly thick copper sabot and deep lathe hole on a flat bottom .  Most (or all), as is mine, are wood fused but I'm pretty sure I've seen one or more copper fused examples.   But when I look at my 1990 picture I took at the museum I only see wood fused shells; no copper fused.  Perhaps someone here has a copper fused example and can provide the fuse diameter.  The D&G book doesn't mention a copper fuse so perhaps not.

Back to Steve's original posting, I'm going to find one of those cameras for my use.  Sure looks like a great tool.  I have frequently thought "If I could only look inside...".
Best,
Carl

Selma Hunter

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Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2017, 02:40:27 PM »
Woodenhead,

I have located a copy of my book that is available.  It will take a day or two so keep in touch.  Fella that has it is having his house repainted and it is upside down this week.