Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum

Author Topic: Interior photo of segmented Selma  (Read 15295 times)

Steve Phillips

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
    • Email
Interior photo of segmented Selma
« on: September 13, 2017, 11:43:56 AM »
Yesterday I received a new toy. It is a endoscope like they stick up you when you get a colonoscopy. I ordered it so I could look inside shells. I took this photo of the interior of a 3 inch segmented Selma made shell. Everyone calls them Brouns but I don't much like that name applied to these Selma Segmented Reads. All these segmented shells were made at Selma and most if not all were issued to Forrest late in the war. Anyway the endoscope is fun to use and easy to learn how. Also they are cheap, I think it only cost about $30. It is wireless connection to my iPad and also works on phones or laptop.

Lt12pdr

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 39
    • Email
Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 06:44:13 PM »
cool!

scottfromgeorgia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
    • Email
Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2017, 09:47:55 AM »
That is cool. But please don't show us any internal personal cavities.

Daveslem

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 281
    • Email
Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2017, 04:38:13 PM »
You should think about changing your diet.
Later,
Dave Slemmer

Woodenhead

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
    • Email
Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2017, 05:54:34 PM »
What do you mean when you say the 3 inch Read with a segmented interior was made at Selma? Did the great CS Naval Ordnance Works at Selma make them? It is my understanding that the relatively small Army arsenal at Selma never made any shells. They were sent there by other arsenals and private contractors. A March 1, 1864, letter from James Burton to Selma's Col. White inquired about "a considerable quantity of iron castings are required for building purposes at this Armory [Macon]," which the Ord. Dept. had suggested could be supplied by Selma. Burton continued: "I learn, however, from Col. R. M. Cuyler [Commander Macon Arsenal], who has just returned from Selma, that you have no foundry attached to the Arsenal under your command, and that all your castings are made by contract at the Selma Iron Works." I believe this was Churchill & Co., who had relocated from Mississippi and was a primary source of artillery projectiles.

I believe your 3 inch Read was a product of the Augusta Arsenal. Contemporary correspondence confirms that all of their field caliber rifle ammunition, except 10 & 20 pounder Read-Parrotts, had segmented interiors. Col. Rains reported receiving special permission from Richmond to employ this experimental design around March 1863, and they were still making segmented shells in mid-1864. The segmented Whitworth shells found at Chancellorsville and Gettysburg came from Augusta. I found the invoice. The CS 3.67 inch "Selma" Broun shell with the "star" cavity [Dickey/George 1993 ed., pg. 136] found in the river at Selma appears to be an Augusta Arsenal product. And Augusta made all of the smooth-sided 3.5 inch Reads with segmented interiors.  I don't have any reports that shine light on the final nine months of the war, but it is possible the production of field caliber rifle shells with segmented interiors continued. But this fact I do have documented - one of the last trains to arrive at Selma shortly before it fell in April 1865 had several cars filled with the contents of Augusta's artillery store house. It appears the contents were quickly dumped in the river. Labeling them "Selma shells" naturally followed.

Two Augusta Arsenal shells, pictured below, have segmented interiors. The records strongly suggest that only Augusta produced 'star' interiors in their field caliber rifle ammo (excluding Read-Parrotts). The first two views show a rare 3.67 inch Broun shells found in the river at Selma. Available records show only Augusta cast this caliber during 1864-65. Its cast brass sabot, machined on the interior, and the fairly flat iron bottom and dimple closely resemble a number of contemporary Augusta shells.

Two views of a badly rusted 3.5 inch Read intended for the imported Blakely Rifles. Reportedly part of the cache found in VA during 1960s at Long Bridge. Note the segmented "star" interior that Augusta received special permission to use. I don't think any other foundry made field caliber shells with this feature. Please straighten me out if anyone knows otherwise. Augusta began casting these during the fall of 1863 following a request from the Army of TN for 3.5 shells for one or two Blakely Rifles under Gen. Longstreet's command. Augusta apparently copied the smooth body and overall appearance of the 3.5 inch shells produced by Samson & Pae since late 1862. Noteworthy difference was no lathe key on nose of Augusta's and cast brass sabot on these as opposed to S & P's use of rolled brass or copper. And of course, no field caliber rifle shells with segmented interiors were made in VA. In early 1864, Augusta sent these to Mobile, Charleston and the Army of Tenn. Very few from VA.

Hey Steve, it would help me if some time you could send a full length pic of your 3 inch segmented Read. Augusta sent most of its Reads to Richmond. I'd like to compare to other photos. Where else have these 3 inch Reads been found? Records show in early 1864 Augusta was sending artillery ammo directly to Gen. Forrest.

Woodenhead

Steve Phillips

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
    • Email
Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2017, 06:41:44 PM »
Researching documents is not the actual truth. Selma was in my opinion the most important manufacturer for the Confederacy in the last couple years of the war. 6 to 10 thousand people were making all kinds of stuff for the confederacy. Selma has never received the recognition that it deserves. I'm not a researcher of documents but have found  so many unfinished items at Selma that there is no doubt where the items were made. Augusta or Macon wouldn't be a pimple on Selma's butt.

relicrunner

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2017, 09:11:55 AM »
Great discussion!....I want to hear from Pete and Wellhunter!

Woodenhead

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
    • Email
Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2017, 07:52:19 PM »
Everything you said is true except one word is missing - "Navy." The CS Naval Works at Selma were awesome. They cast thousands of big guns and projectiles of the highest quality. There was a separate Army depot at Selma, however, that adopted the "Arsenal" label around the start of 1863. The Army and Navy ordnance facilities operated in separate universes. A low level of hostility existed mainly coming from Cmdr. Brooke and his Navy associates directed against the Army's ordnance establishment. It heated up in Richmond during the winter of 1861-62 when Brooke experimented with the Army's current crop of large caliber projectiles, i.e. the 32 pounder Archer, lead-sabot "Tredegar" and various versions of the Dahlgren. He couldn't believe how bad they were. As he expressed in his book, it was obvious the Army ordnance officers hadn't properly tested them and didn't seem to care enough to do anything about it. Consequently, Brooke set the CS Navy on course to make their own cannon and projectiles. The CS Navy found their own sources of iron. By 1863-65, Selma's Naval Works had little or nothing to do with the relatively small Army Arsenal. When the Army's Col. White required some iron castings at Selma, he contracted with a private shop. Except in a few extreme emergencies, requesting help from the expansive Naval Works was not an option. This should be obvious in the letter below.

So Steve, for the sake of this discussion, forget the tons of castings and implements you and others have been recovering for years. Yes, the Naval Works and the private Selma Iron Works across the street dumped tons of cool stuff in the river. I've seen it in your basement. Probably more than anyone but Tredegar. My only concern here is with the Army's field caliber projectiles found on the river bottom. The Naval Works didn't make them and the Army's Selma Arsenal had no foundry. Furthermore, with the documentation made available recently, it can be affirmed that Augusta, and only Augusta, made field caliber shells with segmented interiors. Also, Augusta was asked by Richmond in early 1863 to produce a quantity of the tiny 2.25 inch Mountain Rifle shells. Later correspondence and production records confirms they did so. The little round hole in the wooden plug seen in the 2.25 inch Mullane below fits a Rains percussion "pencil point" fuze. In early 1864, Augusta sent several hundred and two of the lightweight guns directly to Gen. Forrest.  For some reason, they were not accepted and Forrest received two 3 inch Rifles in their place. I haven't found the invoice, but I'll guarantee Augusta sent 3 inch Reads with segmented interiors if they have been found in his battle sites.

In summary, it appears that no field-caliber Army shells were ever made at Selma. Don't take my word for it, listen to Col. Cuyler, respected commander of the Macon Arsenal, telling Col. Burton as much in the letter below. We must look for other explanations for some of those "Selma" shells found on the river bottom. I've got the contemporary correspondence reporting the delivery of the contents of the Augusta Arsenal by rail within 24 or 48 hours of the city's surrender. I'll be happy to post any documents anyone wants to examine. This is all part of an effort to identify the makers and time period of as many projectiles as possible. There is still a lot to learn. This generation of life-long diggers and collectors has to do it or it will not get done. Its what Tom would want.

Woodenhead

 

speedenforcer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 931
    • Raulerson Relics
Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2017, 10:06:54 PM »
Very informative topic.
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

Steve Phillips

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
    • Email
Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2017, 11:27:39 PM »
Okay Woodenhead, you are going to make me prove it. I just went downstairs and took a few photos. I only have part of my collection here and the rest is at two other locations so I can't show all unfinished items. You must remember that the arsenal and the navy works were not the main producers for Selma. The private manufacturers were and there are very few written records that have survived. I'm going to try to post ten photos and explain them. I will have to post the photos separate.
   0.   This is a poor casting of a 3 inch Selma Read type that is usually segmented but this one is the second variety. It is not segmented and is threaded for a screw in fuze or holder. It was discarded before the sabot was applied.
   0.   This is a 3 inch Brooke that is unfinished. The hole for the bolt was never drilled and only has the lathe dimple.
   0.   Same
   0.   This is an extremely rare CS 3.25 Dahlgren (two known) that is unfinished. The sabot was never applied.
   0.   These parts are for a Selma bit. Never assembled and I have other parts where the holes were not made yet.
   0.   CS Leech and Rigdon type tongue buckles that were poor castings. We have found many complete tongues and wreaths at that spot as well as the furniture parts they were melting to make the buckles. Many of these buckles as well as the types with stars were made at Selma. The poor castings prove they were made there . Nobody would ship a poor casting from another location.
   0.   CS Selma made Borman fuze. I have found many 24 pounder case shot with these fuzes at Selma.
   0.   Same
   0.   Some of my unfinished bayonets that were made at Selma. I have found many of these over the last 40+ years diving at Selma. I have many other bayonets of other styles that were made at Selma. I don't know of any records that were written about any bayonets being made at Selma but I think there were more made there than anywhere. They made saber bayonets, shotgun bayonets, a large variety of socket bayonets as well as swords.
   0.   Same                  Selma made everything . I've found where they were punching out rowels for spurs. They made Girardy fuzes, Archer fuzes, water cap fuzes, all kinds of friction primers including tin plated iron primers. They made horseshoes and nails by the thousands. They made artillery sights and the tools for firing the guns. I've even found a rifle lock plate that didn't have any screw holes drilled. Selma has never been given the credit it deserves. Birmingham did not exist until 1872 and was created because of what was available in raw materials in Alabama and this was demonstrated by what was made at and for Selma. Birmingham became the second largest producer of iron and steel second only to Pittsburgh. By the way just for the record most of the artillery projectiles that were found at Milledgeville Georgia were made at Selma. Not all but most.

Steve Phillips

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
    • Email
Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2017, 11:33:04 PM »
2

Steve Phillips

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
    • Email
Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2017, 11:33:51 PM »
3

Steve Phillips

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
    • Email
Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2017, 11:34:33 PM »
4

Steve Phillips

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
    • Email
Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2017, 11:35:20 PM »
5

Steve Phillips

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
    • Email
Re: Interior photo of segmented Selma
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2017, 11:37:52 PM »
6