I come to the experts with questions about the Mullane 5.82" Rifled shell

[noonanda]

Gentlemen, Artillery Experts, I come to you with another question

I sent a similar version of this post to Harry Ridgeway at Relicman.com because he has a few pictures of a few recovered Selma 5.82 Rifled shells. and I am not sure if he is a member here.
This is of the "possible" shell http://www.relicman.com/artillery/Artillery%205640%20Selma%205.8in.html
I have a fragment/piece of what I am guessing is a Selma 5.82 Shell. I have referenced "Civil War Heavy Explosive Ordnance, A Guide to Large Artillery Projectiles, Torpedoes, and Mines, by Jack Bell". Please let me explain why I think this might be the case, Im laying this out just to see if this makes sense and if my logic on it seems valid.

The piece of shell I found was located in Dumfries/Triangle Virginia. Dumfries/Triangle butts right up to Quantico Va, During the Civil war Quantico was known as Evansport. Per "Civil War Heavy Explosive Ordnance", pages 384-385 Selma had made a 5.82 Rifled gun which was sent to Evansport. When the Evansport defenses were abandoned in early 1862, the Confederate forces blew up their magazine which was located on what is now the Golf course. Where I found this Fragment was about 700-900 yards west of there. It has part of what I think is a Bourrelet ring, and when I did some math to determine circumference based on measurements I come up with 5.70 give or take .02. the Frag was rusted severely and I used electrolysis to remove it.

At first I thought it might have been a modern shell fragment, but the area where it was found was off base and was never used for artillery weapons. based on the attached pictures and measurement, do you think it is that, or might it be a piece of frag from a Union 24Lb rifled gun that might have been on one of the Potomac flotilla that shelled Evansport? The reason why I dont suspect this is only due to the fact that none of the ships I have been able to reference as taking part in the Evansport shelling had a 24Lb rifled gun listed, it just lists them as 24LB which I take to be smoothbore guns firing roundballs.

Now I also understand that there is no 100%answer on this as it is not a complete shell either, just trying to possibly narrow it down

The images can be viewed here,
https://ibb.co/album/nauArF

[Pete George]

  Please pardon the delay in replying.  I know more about the civil war Field Artillery calibers of projectiles than the "Heavy" projectiles. I was hoping some other folks here would contribute their knowledge.

  First... I've never heard of a Selma Disc-Sabot projectile (of any caliber) ever being found in Virginia.

Sidenote:
 There was a report (from just one person) that a 3.5" Selma was found at High Bridge VA, but its sabot was almost entirely missing, which suggests it was fired, and even after consulting Bill Graham, I've never heard of fired 3.5" projectiles (of any kind) being found at High Bridge.

  Thank you for the excellent photos showing your maybe-Selma frag from every angle.  The multiple views are exactly what we need.  Your frag does not seem to be from a Read shell.  If it was, the bottom of the frag's interior side should show the impression of Dr. Read's ring-sabot, but there's no trace of that.

  Having eliminated Read, the only possibilities that come to my mind for your Spring 1862 dig-site frag are, it could be from either a Selma Disc or a Mullane/Tennessee-Sabot shell.  I'm glad you said
"Now I also understand that there is no 100% answer on this as it is not a complete shell."

Note: This post was Modified only to correct some typing errors.

Regards,
Pete

[Woodenhead]

I visited the site of the exploded CS ammo bunker in the woods on the north side of the golf course about 12 years ago. The walls were still standing and there were a few little piles of shrapnel rusting away at the base of a couple of trees. Probably left there by relic hunters 20 years earlier. The Quantico base used to give permission to search the grounds. I like the idea of squeezing a story out of a little piece of shrapnel. So, here is my contribution. The first two pics show a 5.82 inch Mullane shell found in the defenses of Richmond. It is the long version meant to be fired by a banded (reinforced) gun. On Dec. 28, 1861, the Richmond Arsenal ordered Tredegar to begin making this style "with copper cup... after Read's pattern," for all their field and heavy projectiles. The third pic below shows a similar, but slightly smaller, rifled 18 pounder Mullane shell fired at the Federals in late June 1862 at Gaines Mill. It was the short version intended for a cannon with no reinforcement around the breech. These Mullanes replaced the Tredegar pattern projectiles with cast-on lead (sometimes brass) sabots which has been lost on the long 4.62 rifled 12 pounder shell shown last, below. The first 5.82 inch shells sent to Evansport would have had this lead band sabot. Intact examples are extremely rare. Col. Biemeck is the only hunter I know has found these - reportedly at one of the Confederate's other Potomac River batteries.

Noonanda, you need to drop "Selma" out of any descriptions you attach to your iron fragment. I am pretty sure that famous Alabama foundry was not producing projectiles until a later date. And when it really got busy, it was a naval ordnance works. There was an Army depot there but it was small and primarily had shells made by nearby private contractors. It is my understanding that all CS shells with the large flat copper disc on the bottom like those you reference were late war CS Navy products. Your iron shard lay in the sacred soil of Virginia through a couple of winters before those Selma shells were cast.

Woodenhead

[Khk2921]

I have found 5.82 Selma at Vicksburg  and at port Hudson, there  is also a 6.4 versionninfound at grand gulf

[Selma Hunter]

All,

I'd sure be interested in ANY information indicating the casting/forging of 5.82 gun(s) in Selma.

[noonanda]

All,

I'd sure be interested in ANY information indicating the casting/forging of 5.82 gun(s) in Selma.

I'll see if I can find the info, its been a while

[Jack Bell]

Steve has far more knowledge than I do about the timing of Selma distributing projectiles to east coast sites.

Nonetheless, I came across an original letter from Commander John Brooke to Commander Catesby Jones darted August 25, 1864. In it Brooke directs Jones and the Selma Arsenal to assume the burden of providing projectiles, especially shells, to "Stations on the Atlantic Coast." Brooke goes to say that Richmond can provide bolts to the Columbia and the PeeDee but not rifled shells.

Brooke's introductory sentence is interesting:

"The failure of all attempts to make rifle shells at Charlotte, together with the interruption  of work at Atlanta, the scarcity of iron in Virginia, and the inability of manufacturers in S.C. to furnish projectiles has so reduced the sources of supply for Naval purposes that it will be necessary to call upon the works under your command for projectiles, particularly Shell for
Stations on the Atlantic Coast."

Steve may have sources that confirm earlier work for east coast naval stations, but this letter nails it.

[Selma Hunter]

Gentlemen,

I would be remiss if I failed to note a few issues in this thread. 

1) If there was ever a 5.82" gun or rifle made in Selma I have been unable to find any record of such in 14 years of diligent research on that place.  I would be delighted to know that someone has proof of such production. 

2) Jack states that Brooke directed Jones "..at the Selma Arsenal" to supply [large] projectiles to the stations on the Atlantic Coast.  True, but from the Selma Confederate Naval Gun Foundry & Ordnance Works ("SCNGF&OW") only. The Selma Arsenal was an ARMY facility totally controlled by Army Gen. Josiah Gorgas & it was located on a separate parcel of land at the other end of Water Avenue.  Brooke had no authority to direct the Armys' Ltc. White, Commanding, to provide projectiles for the CSN.

3) What is also missing here is Jones' reply to Brooke stating that he could either supply cannon or shells, but not both.  Jones was hugely understaffed at the SCNGF&OW and in no position to comply with Cmdr. Brookes' orders.  Brooke demurred and Jones continued to focus his resources on the big guns.

4) There were no fewer than two occasions in 1864 when Jones ran out of suitable iron for making guns and put his men to work making shells and undertaking repairs to the Foundry facilities.  As soon as good pig iron was available he went back to work on making the famous Selma guns. 

5) Much, if not most, of the ammunition used along the Mississippi and Western Tennessee would have come from ARMY Ordnance Works in places such as Memphis (closed & relocated under the command of Maj.(?) Wm. Hunt early in '62 if I recall), Columbus (MS), Selma, etc.  It is a certainty that others locations like Atlanta and Richmond also provided munitions for those places.

6) The SCNGF&OW didn't produce ANYTHING except frustration, hard work & sweat until it shipped S-5, a 7" Double Banded Brooke Rifle to CSN Flotilla Commander Buchanan on Mobile Bay, on January 8 of 1864.  The entire period between January 23(?) of 1863 (when the Foundry facilities were initially acquired as a joint Army/Navy property) and January 1864 was taken up by the necessity to rebuild, equip (properly) and organize the new Navy facility.  The CSN bought out the CSA interests in the Foundry facilities in August/September of '63.

The SCNGF&OW was handicapped from the outset by a lack of labor and simple resources like shoes for barefooted foundry workers, housing for the labor and other necessities like leather belting to operate the overhead drive shafts for shop equipment.  What they accomplished there with what they were given to work with and in such a short period of time is a remarkable success story achieved by some exceptional men under the most difficult conditions.

[Gunner Thrasher]

Gentelmen, reading Bill's reply I agree with him. Having spent a considerable amount of time in the Selma Naval Gun Foundry and Ordnance Works gun logs I see that there 6 different sizes of projectils possible made there. 4.2 inch for the 30 pdr Parrotts made there, 6.4 inch, 7 inch, 8 inch, 10 inch and 11 inch for the Brookes. I havent found anything referring to 5.82 inch being made at the Naval works.
     Just my 2 cents if it is worth it. Happy 4th to all of you. Gordon.

[noonanda]

Gentlemen,

I would be remiss if I failed to note a few issues in this thread. 

1) If there was ever a 5.82" gun or rifle made in Selma I have been unable to find any record of such in 14 years of diligent research on that place.  I would be delighted to know that someone has proof of such production. 

2) Jack states that Brooke directed Jones "..at the Selma Arsenal" to supply [large] projectiles to the stations on the Atlantic Coast.  True, but from the Selma Confederate Naval Gun Foundry & Ordnance Works ("SCNGF&OW") only. The Selma Arsenal was an ARMY facility totally controlled by Army Gen. Josiah Gorgas & it was located on a separate parcel of land at the other end of Water Avenue.  Brooke had no authority to direct the Armys' Ltc. White, Commanding, to provide projectiles for the CSN.

3) What is also missing here is Jones' reply to Brooke stating that he could either supply cannon or shells, but not both.  Jones was hugely understaffed at the SCNGF&OW and in no position to comply with Cmdr. Brookes' orders.  Brooke demurred and Jones continued to focus his resources on the big guns.

4) There were no fewer than two occasions in 1864 when Jones ran out of suitable iron for making guns and put his men to work making shells and undertaking repairs to the Foundry facilities.  As soon as good pig iron was available he went back to work on making the famous Selma guns. 

5) Much, if not most, of the ammunition used along the Mississippi and Western Tennessee would have come from ARMY Ordnance Works in places such as Memphis (closed & relocated under the command of Maj.(?) Wm. Hunt early in '62 if I recall), Columbus (MS), Selma, etc.  It is a certainty that others locations like Atlanta and Richmond also provided munitions for those places.

6) The SCNGF&OW didn't produce ANYTHING except frustration, hard work & sweat until it shipped S-5, a 7" Double Banded Brooke Rifle to CSN Flotilla Commander Buchanan on Mobile Bay, on January 8 of 1864.  The entire period between January 23(?) of 1863 (when the Foundry facilities were initially acquired as a joint Army/Navy property) and January 1864 was taken up by the necessity to rebuild, equip (properly) and organize the new Navy facility.  The CSN bought out the CSA interests in the Foundry facilities in August/September of '63.

The SCNGF&OW was handicapped from the outset by a lack of labor and simple resources like shoes for barefooted foundry workers, housing for the labor and other necessities like leather belting to operate the overhead drive shafts for shop equipment.  What they accomplished there with what they were given to work with and in such a short period of time is a remarkable success story achieved by some exceptional men under the most difficult conditions.

Gentelmen, reading Bill's reply I agree with him. Having spent a considerable amount of time in the Selma Naval Gun Foundry and Ordnance Works gun logs I see that there 6 different sizes of projectils possible made there. 4.2 inch for the 30 pdr Parrotts made there, 6.4 inch, 7 inch, 8 inch, 10 inch and 11 inch for the Brookes. I havent found anything referring to 5.82 inch being made at the Naval works.
     Just my 2 cents if it is worth it. Happy 4th to all of you. Gordon.

Gentlemen, I had to go back and read my own post to figure out where I found this info.

Per "Civil War Heavy Explosive Ordnance", pages 384-385 Selma had made a 5.82 Rifled gun which was sent to Evansport.

[Gunner Thrasher]

Ok, reviewing pages 384 and 385, I see where it says that Tredegar delivered at least eleven rifled 24 pdrs. That was in 1861. Selma was not operating at that time.

[Jack Bell]

In rereading my quote on pp. 384-385, I think our friend has made two mistakes.  First, the quote says that Tredegar made at least 11 rifled 24 pounder cannon, not Selma.  Second, the title of this question identified Tennessee (i.e., Mullane, not Selma) shells.  So the discussion got off in the wrong direction by talking about Selma shells at Evansport.  Hopefully, this can help us refocus the discussion to be more helpful.