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Author Topic: Fuse vs projectile  (Read 5727 times)

Joe Walker

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Fuse vs projectile
« on: June 07, 2017, 05:11:19 PM »
Just watched an old you-tube video of an 1841 and a Napoleon firing projectiles that exploded on contact.  What fuse would a 12 pounder use as a contact fuse?  I had assumed that rifles were pretty much exclusive to contact rounds such as Parrotts and Hotchkiss, etc.  Timed fuses were what smooth bores had for all non-solid shot projectiles.  Your responses would be educational for sure...............

Joe

emike123

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Re: Fuse vs projectile
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2017, 09:14:43 PM »
A Girardey would do that, or exceptionally good timing.

Pete George

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Re: Fuse vs projectile
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2017, 01:51:44 AM »
 The only impact-detonation fuzes for smoothbore artillery ammo (roundshells) were the Tice or Broun "concussion" fuzes, if I recall correctly.

 I think a Girardey projects above the ball's surface too high. It would hit the borewall during firing, unless the ball did not "roll" even as little as 75 degrees on its way down the bore.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 02:48:07 PM by Pete George »

speedenforcer

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Re: Fuse vs projectile
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2017, 10:01:16 PM »
Wasn't the round balls attached to a wooden sabot with tin straps to prevent them from turning in the barrel?
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

Pete George

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Re: Fuse vs projectile
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2017, 11:19:10 PM »
  Yes, but the straps-&-sabot wasn't always successful at preventing a roundshell from "rolling upon firing."  The main purpose of the straps-&-sabot was to keep the ball from rolling during loading, which could cause the fuzeplug to wind up facing the propellant charge.  If that happened, the firing blast would instantly destroy/rupture the fuze, which WOULD cause an in-the-barrel detonation upon firing.

  I've seen some Bormann and CS timefuze plugs that are marked by having "kissed" the bore wall on their way out of the barrel.  Also, if I recall correctly, "rolling upon firing" was attributed to causing some of the CS Bormann fuze premature detonations.

Regards,
Pete

pipedreamer65

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Re: Fuse vs projectile
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2017, 07:55:10 AM »
Good stuff.....

Yea, I've seen movies where a round projectile explodes on contact....  always wondered about that.

jonpatterson

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Re: Fuse vs projectile
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2017, 08:49:36 AM »
Pete,

Your explanation about sabot and straps on shells is quite informative. Was there a special purpose for using a sabot and straps on solid shot?  Thanks.
It is history that teaches us to hope.

Robert E. Lee

speedenforcer

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Re: Fuse vs projectile
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2017, 09:00:32 AM »
Oh ok Pete, That makes sense. You the expert. Thanks for educating me.

It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

Pete George

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Re: Fuse vs projectile
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2017, 12:40:36 PM »
  Speedenforcer, you're welcome. :)

  Pipedreamer, when giving a program/talk to a relic club or school class, I almost always mention Hollywood's incorrectness in showing cannonballs exploding when they hit the ground.  I do explain that Hollywood does it because it's safer and simpler than trying to simulate a cannonball airburst among the actors. But still, a part of me groans every time I see groundbursting cannonballs (meaning, detonation upon impact with the ground or other solid object).

Jonpatterson, the secondary purpose of the sabot-&-straps is to provide a simple way of firmly attaching a propellant-powder bag, thereby producing "Fixed" ammunition (projectile and powderbag connected as a single unit), which significantly speeded up the cannon loading process.

  In actuality, of course, the only two civil war fuzes capable of producing a cannonball groundburst, the (US) Tice Concussion and (CS) Broun Concussion, were ALMOST NEVER used in cannonballs. Due to reliability and safety concerns, the US and CS (respectively) Ordnance Departments declined to produce them beyond a small number for experimentation/testing.  So the fact that they did exist is not a viable excuse for Hollywood's incorrect portrayal of cannonball explosions.

Note: The paragraphs above were modified after posting, for the purpose of clarification.

Regards to all,
Pete
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 07:48:58 PM by Pete George »

jonpatterson

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Re: Fuse vs projectile
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2017, 04:46:28 PM »
Thanks for the information Pete. After I read your explanation, I remembered hearing/seeing that before.  DUH! Grey hair moment.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge through the forum.
It is history that teaches us to hope.

Robert E. Lee

Joe Walker

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Re: Fuse vs projectile
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2017, 10:26:27 PM »
Thanks.........not sure if this works, but here is the youtube location
of what I was talking about.  The first part is the hits on/near the old army vehicle, then the last part shows the guns firing the shots. They look like a Napoleon and an 1841.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL1DkrYL70s&feature=youtu.be

Pete George

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Re: Fuse vs projectile
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2017, 06:48:50 PM »
Yep, the video's comments say the cannons are smoothbores... visually confirmed by one of them having "Dolphins" instead of trunnions.  I would very much like to know how the cannons' owner achieved impact-detonation with roundshells.  I doubt that a working repro Tice or Broun Concussion fuse was created and got used.  I wonder if it's a sort of variation on an old (from my 1950s childhood) firework, shaped like a small pebble, which would explode when you threw it down onto pavement.

Regards,
Pete

speedenforcer

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Re: Fuse vs projectile
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2017, 08:33:43 PM »
could it be possibly some sort of tannerite target hidden to make it look like a shell exploding. Those usually have to be set of with a high velocity round usually only rifles or so I thought.
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

Joe Walker

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Re: Fuse vs projectile
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2017, 10:54:54 PM »
Pete-  those "pebbles" were "Cracker Balls"