Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum

Author Topic: Lets talk Naval Artillery  (Read 4900 times)

noonanda

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
    • Email
Lets talk Naval Artillery
« on: May 09, 2017, 07:48:24 AM »
Gentlemen I come here to ask questions of the experts. I found a piece of what I believe is a Naval Common ball fired from the Potomac flotilla at the confederate batteries. my friend found a piece similar to this. I am doing electrolysis on it. this piece alone, must weigh about 4-5 pounds and is between 2-2 1/2 inches thick.

Now my questions are what was the ranges of Naval smoothbore artillery that would have been aboard the Potomac Flotilla in mid-1861-1862? This would be the time when Confederates had closed the river to traffic, before they abandoned their positions and moved south of the Rappahannock river.

Also does anyone know what size cannons were carried by the Potomac flotilla?

24thMichigan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
Re: Lets talk Naval Artillery
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2017, 01:49:38 PM »
I'm by no means an expert but I believe the early gunboats were armed with 12, 32 and 42 pounder smoothbores, some Parrott guns and swivel guns.  Later the ironclads could be fitted with 12 or more guns and included big Dahlgrens in varying sizes.  The USS Monitor was supposed to be armed with 15-inch Dahlgrens in 1862 but 11-inch were substituted when the 15-inch were not ready in time.   I'm sure the experts here will provide corrections and much more detail.

divedigger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
    • Email
Re: Lets talk Naval Artillery
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2017, 05:13:11 PM »
the smooth bore shell had a range around 2 miles

CarlS

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2475
    • Email
Re: Lets talk Naval Artillery
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2017, 07:10:03 PM »
Large Dahlgren cannons were around before the civil war.  The 9-inch was adopted in 1850 and soon after the 11-inch gun came into play.  While rarely used since no war was going on we know they existed due to the 185x dated water cap fuses for the Dahlgren balls.  The 15-inch balls didn't come along until the I think the middle of the war.  Of course 13-inch mortars were around well before the civil war and could have been on a mortar barge in your area and could be fired about 2 miles away.  In fact the very thin walled versions were used in the Rev War and we often see the French marked ones that were found in the Yorktown area.  Most of the big smoothbore rifles I think was limited to about 2 or 3 miles.

So regarding your nice find you'll need to remove the rust and determine circumference to figure out what caliber it was.
Best,
Carl

noonanda

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
    • Email
Re: Lets talk Naval Artillery
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2017, 09:35:25 AM »
The after Electrolysis pictures. Was a bit off in my thickness estimate but there was a good amount of rust on it. Have not weighed it yet.

Selma Hunter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 389
Re: Lets talk Naval Artillery
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2017, 01:23:36 PM »
Here is some information that may be helpful to noonanda’s query.

The armament onboard the union flotilla would have included guns ranging from 12lb howitzers to a 10 inch SB on the USS Cumberland.  Cumberland also carried a “70lbr” rifle as aft main deck pivot and 22 x 9 inch Dahlgren SB’s in broadside.  Exactly what the stated 70lbr rifle was has been debated but I would guess a Parrott of some definition.   It was CSN Captain Buchanan’s concern for the ability of that gun to penetrate armor (even that of the CSS Virginia) that caused him to attack Cumberland first.  FWIW, the sinking of the Cumberland was the result of damage inflicted by Virginia’s 1,500 lb iron ram, although her guns were doing deadly work as well.  The boat howitzers are frequently overlooked in listings. 

The USS Congress carried 4 x 8 inch SB guns and 48 x 32lbr SB’s in broadside. I am guessing that the 4 x 8 inch guns were main deck pivot mounted guns. 

The USS Minnesota carried 2 x 10 inch SB’s (probably main deck pivot mounted Dahlgrens), 28 x 9 inch SB’s (undoubtedly Dahlgrens) and 2 x 8 inch guns ) probably main deck pivot mounted Dahlgrens).

USS Roanoke carried 1 x 10 inch SB (probably main deck pivot mounted Dahlgren), 28 x 9 inch SB Dahlgrens and 14 x 8 inch SB Dahlgrens. The latter two types served as the broadside armament.  The USS Monitor carried 2 x 11 inch Dahlgren SB’s in a single turret.

Other ships of the Potomac flotilla are omitted here as their participation the festivities had little or no material impact on the naval affairs of Hampton Roads until after the CSS Virginia was scuttled May 11. Later that year the US Navy attempted to force the James River.  Participating yankee vessels were the Galena, Port Royal, Aroostook, and Naugatuck Monitor in a rather one sided affair at Drewry’s Bluff. 

24th Michigan stated that the early yankee “gunboats” were armed with 12, 32 and 42lbr SB’s along with some Parrott guns and “swivel” guns.  True, but limited to western waters and mostly the City Class boats by Eads and others.  Anything constructed as a turreted ironclad (single or double) would have carried the newer Dahlgrens (or perhaps  Parrotts).   As to the 15 inch guns the entire US military had a single prewar experimental 15 inch tube.  It was dismounted and in storage at Fortress Monroe in March of 1962.  Dahlgrens drawings for the 15 inch guns bearing his name were not created until April 6th (? as I recall – see my earlier articles on this subject in the Artilleryman Fall ‘07 and Winter ’12 for more details).   I believe divediggers range estimate is about right for larger guns.

As for Carl's observations perhaps the following will help.  The 9” Dahlgren was not accepted for US Naval use until Dahlgren protégé Catesby ap R. Jones was assigned the task of overseeing the sea trials for those guns February of 1856.  That was the first instance where a navy officer was assigned duties as “Ordnance Lieutenant”.  The ship?  The USS Merrimack!  The 11” Dahlgren was also given it’s sea trials by Jones in 1857 under the command of Dahlgren on the USS Plymouth (?).  The 15 inch balls would have gone into service at the same time as the guns which were first available in September of 1862 as I recall.  The projectiles weighed 440lbs as solid shot, 400lbs as cored shot and 352lbs as shell. 

Interestingly, USS Merrimack (CSS Virginia), USS Minnesota and the USS Roanoke were all USS Merrimack-class 44 gun (originally 9” Dahlgrens) auxiliary steam screw frigates.  Obviously deck pivot guns were added later.

The CSS Virginia mounted 2 x 7 inch single banded Tredegar made "Brooke" rifles as bow and stern pivots (designation as "Brooke" rifles respectfully debated by some), 2 x 6.4 inch single banded Tredegar made "Brooke" rifles in the #2 & #3 broadside positions, 2 x 9 inch Dahlgren "Hotshot" guns in the #4 & #5 broadside positions, the remaining 4 broadside positions were 9 inch Dahlgren SBs.

I hope this helps and please do let me know if I have erred anywhere here.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 01:26:00 PM by Selma Hunter »

noonanda

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
    • Email
Re: Lets talk Naval Artillery
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2017, 02:15:07 PM »
Here is some information that may be helpful to noonanda’s query.

The armament onboard the union flotilla would have included guns ranging from 12lb howitzers to a 10 inch SB on the USS Cumberland.  Cumberland also carried a “70lbr” rifle as aft main deck pivot and 22 x 9 inch Dahlgren SB’s in broadside.  Exactly what the stated 70lbr rifle was has been debated but I would guess a Parrott of some definition.   It was CSN Captain Buchanan’s concern for the ability of that gun to penetrate armor (even that of the CSS Virginia) that caused him to attack Cumberland first.  FWIW, the sinking of the Cumberland was the result of damage inflicted by Virginia’s 1,500 lb iron ram, although her guns were doing deadly work as well.  The boat howitzers are frequently overlooked in listings. 

The USS Congress carried 4 x 8 inch SB guns and 48 x 32lbr SB’s in broadside. I am guessing that the 4 x 8 inch guns were main deck pivot mounted guns. 

The USS Minnesota carried 2 x 10 inch SB’s (probably main deck pivot mounted Dahlgrens), 28 x 9 inch SB’s (undoubtedly Dahlgrens) and 2 x 8 inch guns ) probably main deck pivot mounted Dahlgrens).

USS Roanoke carried 1 x 10 inch SB (probably main deck pivot mounted Dahlgren), 28 x 9 inch SB Dahlgrens and 14 x 8 inch SB Dahlgrens. The latter two types served as the broadside armament.  The USS Monitor carried 2 x 11 inch Dahlgren SB’s in a single turret.

Other ships of the Potomac flotilla are omitted here as their participation the festivities had little or no material impact on the naval affairs of Hampton Roads until after the CSS Virginia was scuttled May 11. Later that year the US Navy attempted to force the James River.  Participating yankee vessels were the Galena, Port Royal, Aroostook, and Naugatuck Monitor in a rather one sided affair at Drewry’s Bluff. 

24th Michigan stated that the early yankee “gunboats” were armed with 12, 32 and 42lbr SB’s along with some Parrott guns and “swivel” guns.  True, but limited to western waters and mostly the City Class boats by Eads and others.  Anything constructed as a turreted ironclad (single or double) would have carried the newer Dahlgrens (or perhaps  Parrotts).   As to the 15 inch guns the entire US military had a single prewar experimental 15 inch tube.  It was dismounted and in storage at Fortress Monroe in March of 1962.  Dahlgrens drawings for the 15 inch guns bearing his name were not created until April 6th (? as I recall – see my earlier articles on this subject in the Artilleryman Fall ‘07 and Winter ’12 for more details).   I believe divediggers range estimate is about right for larger guns.

As for Carl's observations perhaps the following will help.  The 9” Dahlgren was not accepted for US Naval use until Dahlgren protégé Catesby ap R. Jones was assigned the task of overseeing the sea trials for those guns February of 1856.  That was the first instance where a navy officer was assigned duties as “Ordnance Lieutenant”.  The ship?  The USS Merrimack!  The 11” Dahlgren was also given it’s sea trials by Jones in 1857 under the command of Dahlgren on the USS Plymouth (?).  The 15 inch balls would have gone into service at the same time as the guns which were first available in September of 1862 as I recall.  The projectiles weighed 440lbs as solid shot, 400lbs as cored shot and 352lbs as shell. 

Interestingly, USS Merrimack (CSS Virginia), USS Minnesota and the USS Roanoke were all USS Merrimack-class 44 gun (originally 9” Dahlgrens) auxiliary steam screw frigates.  Obviously deck pivot guns were added later.

The CSS Virginia mounted 2 x 7 inch single banded Tredegar made "Brooke" rifles as bow and stern pivots (designation as "Brooke" rifles respectfully debated by some), 2 x 6.4 inch single banded Tredegar made "Brooke" rifles in the #2 & #3 broadside positions, 2 x 9 inch Dahlgren "Hotshot" guns in the #4 & #5 broadside positions, the remaining 4 broadside positions were 9 inch Dahlgren SBs.

I hope this helps and please do let me know if I have erred anywhere here.


Actually this was found up north around Triangle Va, well up the Potomac so it wouldnt have come from one of those listed Frigates/ships of the line/. The Potomac flotilla that I spoke of would have been the the ships going back and forth from Alexandria engaging the Confederate batteries. Or this could have come from when the Batteries at Shipping point and Evansport (modern day Quantico town) were abandoned when the entire confederate army pulled back south of the Rappahanock. One of the last acts by the Confederates was to detonate the magazine that was located on the present day Golf Course on base. This likely would have thrown projectile fragments all over the area.

But thank you anyway, I did learn from your post and that is always appreciated

Selma Hunter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 389
Re: Lets talk Naval Artillery
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2017, 05:04:55 PM »
noonanda,

See what happens when one assumes?  I feel as if I had just said to the world "Here, hold my beer"!  Perhaps it is good to review old material anyway.  Thank you for your patience with my now demonstrated ignorance.  LOLOL!

noonanda

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
    • Email
Re: Lets talk Naval Artillery
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2017, 09:53:12 AM »
Well I will hopefully have an estimate of the diameter tonight. I was over on the Civil war talk forum and came across this thread that has a forumla to help compute radius's from a fragment. Will let you know what I come up with. Also is there a table that says the thickness of the different shells?

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/an-interesting-little-mystery-re-a-siege-gun-on-bayou-teche.134613/#post-1543003

noonanda

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
    • Email
Re: Lets talk Naval Artillery
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2017, 05:02:05 PM »
Well doing the math on mine, (in inches) Chord of 3.4835, height of 0.4095 = Radius of 3.312 x2= 6.624 which would put it right under a 32lber (@6.625) which from research some of the "Potomac flotilla" was armed with.

What say you all? Also does anyone know what the thickness of a 32Lber Common shell was?


Correction I either read the info wrong, or my measurements are off. this would have to be a 42 Lb'er, but I have not found any of tyhe listed ships having carried this size gun. It makes me wonder what size the confederate batteries were, I really cant find out anything other than there is a chance one gun was a 32 Lb'er. So the mystery continues
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 03:43:48 PM by noonanda »

24thMichigan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
Re: Lets talk Naval Artillery
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2017, 11:49:37 AM »
I have a 42lb solid shot recovered from the Potomac near Budd's Ferry, most likely fired by the confederate's 42 pounder guns..... batteries located at what is now Quantico.  So 42lb guns were there.  Talk to Rick Burton.   Please excuse any misinformation in my original post.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 12:16:01 PM by 24thMichigan »

CarlS

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2475
    • Email
Re: Lets talk Naval Artillery
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2017, 01:16:24 AM »
Hello,

The bore for a 32-lber is 6.4-inch and the shell is typically about 6.25 inches in diameter.  So it sounds like your shell is a bit big if your measurements are accurate.  The next size up is a 42-lber which is a 7-inch bore and your number seems way short on that so if I had to guess I'd say you do have a frag from a 32-lber.  Off hand I don't know the thickness and it may well depend on whether the common shell is a Bormann or wood fuse although off hand I don't know if there is a difference.

My 32-lber ball with a water cap fuse is about 1.25 inches thick opposite the fuse.  I am not sure if they have uniform thickness inside.  My wood fuse ball has that wood fuse still in it so I can't measure that.  None of my reference books give wall thickness that I could find.  Perhaps some forumites have some frags from a 32-lber they can provide some data on.
Best,
Carl