Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum

Author Topic: Rare shrapnel  (Read 36901 times)

divedigger

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2017, 04:26:42 PM »
good stuff, I was glad this thread was revisited, I like frags a lot, this is one of my favorites, base to an 8" Parrott with sabot. I only find shells with no sabots, so a fragment with a sabot is nice
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 04:31:19 PM by divedigger »

speedenforcer

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2017, 05:21:12 PM »
Absolutely. There are some beautiful fragments and ground burst posted. I still don't know how to post but doesn't matter, only piece I have half way interesting is a piece of a side loader read with part of the side hole in it.
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

Woodenhead

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2017, 01:56:27 PM »
This is the most interesting shrapnel I have photographed. It is the complete bottom and part of another from two exploded CS 3.8 inch James Rifle shells. They were found around Dumfries, VA, where artillery was part of Hampton's Legion when they camped north of town in late 1861. More likely, these two were among those fired by Fitz Lee's Rebel horse artillery when they surprise attacked and briefly captured Dumfries in December 1862. I photo'ed two additional pieces (not shown here) dug by Tucker Williams around the upper Rappahannock where Stonewall Jackson faced Gen. Pope's Army of Virginia at the start of the 2nd Manassas Campaign. Ordnance inventories confirm a single 3.8 inch James Rifle accompanied the artillery reserve during 2nd Manassas and Antietam.

Among the many Federal cannon captured on the July 21, 1861, battlefield of First Manassas were nine 3.8 inch James Rifles. Actually, they were prewar U.S. 6 pounders whose bronze bores had been "reamed & rifled" with 15 grooves to accommodate the patented James projectiles. Urgent requests for Richmond to supply suitable solid-shot to supplement the 900 captured James shells were heard almost immediately. Tredegar reported the casting of approximately 400 "James Rifle Shot" in August and September 1861 before production abruptly halted. Records confirm their delivery to the Southern forces gathered at Manassas and Centreville. No examples have been positively identified. I suspect Tredegar made close copies of the James projectiles.

Early in January 1862, Tredegar reported the production of 469 of these complementary "3.75 James Rifle Shell w/band" [Tredegar's Sales Book]. Added underneath was "the gun for the same being abolished." As seen on the copy of the page below, the quantity and price was crossed out. This was done at a later date. The Richmond ordnance establishment was clearly conflicted about the use of these guns. On June 23, 1862, Maj. Briscoe Baldwin instructed Tredegar: "Please recast the James Rifle into a 12 pounder Howitzer as soon as possible." In the wake of the drubbing suffered by the CS artillery on the open fields of Antietam, Gen. Lee pleaded for larger guns. The Ordnance Bureau responded with an October 31, 1862, directive to Tredegar to produce 2,000 James shells and 1,000 bolts according to a "sample," provided by ordnance officer W. N. Smith, "by which they are to be made." None were ever manufactured and "declined" was later penciled into the margin. As Tredegar was busy recasting the Army's bronze 6 pounder cannon into superior 12 pdr. Napoleons in early 1863, their Sales Book reported melting down three "Manassas James Rifles." Not known what happened to the remaining guns but there is evidence suggesting one or two were employed by the Army of North Carolina and Southern Virginia.

I don't see any reason to apply Archer's name to these shells. From his correspondence and newspaper interviews, the ex-Navy surgeon was somewhat egocentric and repeatedly called all of his well known projectiles - "Archers." He understood the value of taking credit for new designs because he had just patented, and expected to profit (25 cents each) from every example made in the South, Archer's percussion fuze. Its not likely his contributions would be overlooked because Dr. Archer ran Tredegar (along with John Tanner) while CEO J. A. Anderson was away commanding North Carolina troops in the field. So poorly did Archer and Tanner operate the Iron Works, however, that elements of the main CS Army fighting at Williamsburg threatened mutiny over the poor quality of the shells and cannon tubes. Both Robert E. Lee and Jeff Davis joined a chorus of pleas for the capable West Pointer, Gen. Anderson, to resign his commission after being wounded on the Peninsula and resume his leadership role at Tredegar. I suspect the real credit for these odd projectiles belonged to whomever was designing those other experimental shells (see Biemeck, Vol. III) made around the same time employing similar flanges or "fins."

Pictured Below: Along with the shrapnel, I show two of a handful of surviving 3.8 inch CS James shells. Both came from early 1862 Confederate positions around Centerville in Fairfax County, VA. The example retaining its lead sabot belonged to Tom Dickey. The other is currently in the collection of Tom Lilijenquist. A selection of a page from Tredegar's production records for January 1862 is shown at the bottom. These 469 James shells were also listed in their Sales Book. Other listings of note on that page are Archer's "332 - 4 pdr. Rifle Shells" intended for Virginia's re-rifled 3.35 inch guns. Below that are listed 348 - 6 pdr. Rifle shells" and "735 - 6 pdr. Rifle shot" - the well known 3 inch Archer shell and shot mass-produced by Tredegar until replaced by the Mullane shells in mid-February, 1862. Interestingly, at the bottom of the list  are "23 - 4.2 inch Rifle shells" for the lone 30 pounder Parrott "Big Boy" also captured at Manassas and now (winter 1861-62) in service blockading the Potomac with the batteries at Evansport.

speedenforcer

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2017, 09:41:14 PM »
You guys have really got some nice shrapnel. It appears that it is a collecting category in its self.
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

Garret

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2017, 09:43:36 PM »
Nice stuff.  On a side note I didn't know Tom Liljenquist collected artillery, I thought he was exclusively images. 
"Suppose you were an idiot.  And suppose you were a member of Congress.  But I repeat myself."  Mark Twain

Woodenhead

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2017, 08:43:48 AM »
My good friend and neighbor, Tom Lilijenquist, has a fine collection of artillery projectiles including many of the rarest known to man. All have been beautifully cleaned and about 1/3 to 1/4 of his total collection are seen at the bottom of the enclosed photo. He put the attractive relic board together as a convenient way to display his many artifacts to guests. Tom's shell collection is not huge, but very impressive for quality and rarity. He was an active shell collector for a relatively brief period 10 or 15 years ago, and is no longer buying as far as I know. Sorry I didn't take a group shot of the balance of his shells - its something you would all like to see.
W.H.

pipedreamer65

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2017, 10:43:22 AM »
Wow, what a beautiful and well thought out display.  Wonderful!

speedenforcer

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2017, 11:20:05 AM »
 :o wow I love dug weapons.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 11:22:24 AM by speedenforcer »
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

Garret

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2017, 07:21:27 PM »
That is by far the most amazing relic board I have ever seen.  You are correct, the quality of each relic is a 10/10 and the presentation is off the charts.   No words can describe it.  Thanks for sharing it.  If I might ask how are the relics attached to the board? 
"Suppose you were an idiot.  And suppose you were a member of Congress.  But I repeat myself."  Mark Twain

Daveslem

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2017, 08:21:05 PM »
Here's his other board. I've had both of these pics for a few years, now. It's tough to appreciate what's there with the small picture requirements.
Later,
Dave Slemmer

speedenforcer

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2017, 09:12:09 PM »
 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o The Bible, which I try to live by sais not to covet, but you guys are tempting me.
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

Garret

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2017, 04:17:56 AM »
I like the dug Savage and Colt revolvers, the variety of  U.S. plates and the Burnside and Sharps carbines.   FANTASTIC!!!!
"Suppose you were an idiot.  And suppose you were a member of Congress.  But I repeat myself."  Mark Twain

pipedreamer65

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2017, 08:33:57 AM »
I need lotion and rags....   LOL  Damn...

callicles

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2017, 08:50:32 AM »
It's Jackson Pollock gone Civil War!!! Cool!!

alwion

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2017, 02:23:57 PM »
ignoring the relics themselves, the display itself is a work of art. The vision to make it look as it does goes beyond my comprehension for a display, I'm in awe