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Author Topic: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2017)  (Read 16332 times)

callicles

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Re: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2016)
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2016, 08:32:42 PM »
Thank you all.

Again, I've "taken" from this site more than I've "given."  This web site is full of professors, and somehow, I was allowed in the classroom where I truly did and do not belong. Being the idiot student, I promise not to promise further idiotic questions.

John, I agree that pictures would be great within the text of my typing.  But, more importantly, I wanted to make sure everyone understood that what I wrote/copied is not from me at all. Perhaps some of you mentors could just post diagrams/computer renditions and/or pictures within this thread, in separate replies, so that there will be no mistaking the contributor. 





« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 11:55:39 PM by callicles »

CarlS

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Re: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2016)
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2016, 08:16:42 AM »
Was traveling and just now able to reply.  Very nice job compiling the scattered information. I'm sure it'll be a reference for many in the future.  Thanks!
Best,
Carl

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2016)
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2016, 12:15:32 PM »
callicles,
    I have read through your compilations on the Bormann and take exception to just two sections.
First I have changed the font and style to 12, Times New Roman to make reading easier for my low vision.  Of course this could have changed your original pages to at least one page  increase.
    I will copy and paste my thoughts highlighted by yellow text with page numbers assigned at top center.
    With regard to assembling a Bormann shell or case shot:
      Again the Ordnance manual states that this shell or case shot it fitted at the arsenal as "an all up round"
     During assembly at arsenal a small amount of rifle powder is placed into the hole of the leather gasket, the holes are punched into the "tin" closing disc, the fuse threads are coated with a white lead and screwed down using the fuse wrench.  They are then boxed and ready for issue.
    To  unscrew this fuse the field is not only dangerous and has killed one person in an attempt to unscrew the fuse but would break the water tight integrity in unscre2ing the fuse which has been set by the white lead would distort if not break the wrench slots. The ordnance manual sets the proper tone of this fuse and I guess it is possible that an abuse of the shell or case shot could happen by any gun crew miss-behavior.
Kind Regards,
John
"Page 14:
     shell’s fuzehole. (Pete George. 9-10-12).
The fact that the punch-holes seen don’t look to be machine punched or drilled, would indicate the fuse’s being delivered to the field with the bottom unpunched and then the artillery unit taking a nail or something similar and creating the holes in the disc before screwing into shells.  (CarlS. 9-10-12)."

Page 17:
      Bormann fuzes were NOT installed at an arsenal, because: (all 7 comments/observations below by Pete George. 7-28-12)
-   They could be unscrewed;
-   Yankee 12-pounder limber-chest “contents diagrams” show a separate compartment for the fuzes;
-   Caches of unfired Bormann shells have been dug, as well as some shells found having no Bormann fuzes;
-   Bormann fuze-wrenches have been dug at cannon positions and artillery camps;
-   One version of Us-made fuze has a feathered arrow on its face pointing in a counter clockwise direction;
-   The thin metal disc at the center of the fuze’s underside is there to prevent water or “humidity” from entering the fuze’s flame hole while the fuze is in storage, awaiting use;
-   The artilleryman had to pierce one or more tiny holes through the sheet metal disc to allow flame from the fuze to enter the shell’s bursting-charge cavity. (Pete George. 7-28-12)"

P.S. Dave the plumber might want to comment on what the white lead does to the fuse threads after is "sets"
P.S.s. I have discovered that the Bormann fuse was used by United Kingdom in the late Crimean War.
"The Crimean War was a military conflict fought between October 1853 – March 1856 in which Russia lost to an alliance of France, the United Kingdom, the Ottoman Empire, and Sardinia"






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« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 12:53:19 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

callicles

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Re: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2016)
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2016, 04:36:03 PM »
Thanks John,

Just for my own clarification, are your exceptions focused on my transcription or with the ideas that were expressed by forum members within the text?  It seems it is the latter, but just wanted to check.

Steve Phillips

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Re: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2016)
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2016, 05:00:05 PM »
The CS Bormans that are in 24 pounder political cavity shells that I have found at Selma are installed.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2016)
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2016, 06:56:21 PM »
       One in the same.....he two paragraphs following my repeat of the Ordnance manual was copied and pasted here from your transcriptions.
Kind Regards,
John
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 11:29:45 AM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

callicles

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Re: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2016)
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2016, 05:11:02 PM »
Steve Phillips,

Just for my own curiosity (and ignorance), could you share with us how you know the fuses in the polygonal shells are inserted at arsenal?  I think it would add to the story of the Bormann fuse discussion. Thanks.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2016)
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2016, 06:59:42 PM »
callicles,
      The Ordnance Manual already sets the law for gun crews and disobeying it can be grounds for Courts-martial.
We can quote and relay all sorts of field expedients, however the Manual states how is should be accomplished.
Kind Regards,
John

callicles

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Re: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2016)
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2016, 07:23:23 PM »
Sorry John. My mistake. I thought he might have personal insights not covered by manuals.

Steve Phillips

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Re: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2016)
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2016, 07:36:52 PM »
These shells came from Selma where they were made and were shipped to many location. They had to be installed at Selma. Manuals are fine but the way things are found tells more.

Selma Hunter

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Re: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2016)
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2016, 08:45:44 AM »
Steve,

I think you are absolutely correct about the installation of the fuzes at the time and place of manufacturing - in Selma at least.  I have seen many Bormann fuzed shells recovered from there and now have a 12 lb case shell about to go to the museum there.  Ironically, this one (river recovery) is minus the fuze and underplug but contains all the shot.  At this point I do not recall having ever seen a known Selma-attributed UNFUZED Bormann shell example other than those recovered from the river there.

This whole discussion raises questions that in some cases seem to have obvious answers;

1) Why ship an "empty" projectile and then charge a shell in the field when it might be or is likely to be required for immediate "application"?

2) Why apply white lead as a sealant (as I recall but may be mistaken about) if the shells are to be used right away? 

3) If the projectiles are charged and fuzed, complete with sealant applied (and presumably dried or "cured"), are they not then water resistant, which fact would lend itself to long term storage and quick application?

4) Does the white lead serve, by design, as a sealant for moisture and flame? 

5) If applied for flame, why use a product like (white lead), then arguably in limited supply?

6) In my humble opinion, it is likely that the incomplete/unfuzed Bormann examples recovered in Selma were among the many thousands of projectiles disposed of while in the process of assembly by BOTH sides on the occasion of the yankee's approach and following the capture of the city.

Perhaps Steve, E-mike, Bart, Pete, Jack or another of the acknowledged experts can address battlefield or fortifications & other point defense locations with known magazine recoveries that were unfuzed at the time of recovery?

These questions are offered for discussion and stimulation only as I can only address the Selma artifacts that have been shared with me by so many generous collectors (beginning with Steve so many years ago) along the way.  To Bart and others to whom this may apply, let me offer my ignorance on the overall subject of projectiles as my only excuse for any gross errors/assumptions in this post.


John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2016)
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2016, 08:55:15 AM »

Steve,
    Do I understand that the Selma shells were made "all up" then sipped?
kind Regards,
John

Steve Phillips

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Re: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2016)
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2016, 01:40:31 PM »
Yes

emike123

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Re: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2016)
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2016, 05:18:52 PM »
I know someone who dug out a magazine of a CS fort and all the Bormann balls were fused with remnants of the silk powder bags also attached.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Bormann Fuse Compilation, BulletandShell.com (2011-2016)
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2016, 07:31:34 PM »
Sorry Mike, I lost the drift on that last statement. Remanent of what?  silk bags?Powder bags?