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Author Topic: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"  (Read 23144 times)

callicles

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Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« on: February 02, 2015, 11:59:38 AM »
This topic was brought up here before but it became sidetracked and subsumed by related but tangential issues. So I want to ask it as a centerpiece for discussion.

Among the knowledgable artillery folks here, is there a diversity of opinion regarding the Bormann fuze with a 90 degree "pie slice" on its face as being strictly Yankee made or manufactured? In other words, is there disagreement among the experts here as to whether this particular type Bormann was strictly Union, or is there a consensus that it is?

I'm not sure if just one person can answer this or not (maybe so), but if not, I hope many of our big hitters would chime in to give me an idea. (I know Pete is still recovering -- God Bless him -- so he might not be ready or able yet. But I respect and admire all of the others here.)

The reason I ask: Over the years I have been doing research regarding a little known or studied-about skirmish/battle here in Mississippi. I hope one day to put my findings in book form. The land owner has allowed me to metal detect the site to compliment my research.  Both Union and Confederate artillery was used here. Historical sources, both primary and secondary, do not reveal a complete list of artillery types used that day.  I am using fragments and actual projectiles found at the site to compliment those written documents to help identify artillery types used. Over the past several years I have found blown Bormann fuzes, and the ones identifiable show the 90 degree wedge. As a consequence, I used that as support to consider that the Yankees were in possession of at least one smoothbore (though my documents beforehand had led me to think that most, if not all, Yankee guns used there were rifled). Well, I found a complete 12 pounder case-shot with complete Boremann
fuze with the 90 degree wedge. This seemed to further my thinking.  However, I had that shell sectioned (and posted it here a couple of years ago) and it was revealed that the shell was Confederate manufactured (rebate). So for the last several years I've been in limbo as to asserting whether the Yankees had one or more smoothbores.  Well, yesterday, I dug up another 12 pound shell with a boremann fuze with the 90 degree wedge (punched at 5).

So now I'm completely torn as what to do.  My relic hunting side (and my buddies who go with me) says "No! Don't cut it in half! You already have one sectioned, leave this one as is!" But my researcher side says, "You know what you have to do -- you have to section it, for if there is no rebate, combined with the 90 degree wedge, you could better theorize that the Yanks had at least one smoothbore.  So, do it for history, not for selfish collecting!!!"

As y'all can see, I'm whining and don't know what to do.  I come to this community to get as much knowledge about the 90 degree wedge theory as possible, hoping that with some collective wisdom I can much better come to a conclusion as what to do.  My brain says "cut," my heart says "No way!"

Sorry for the long post. I hope to get some good advice and the latest up-to-date thinking on the 90 degree.  Thanks!

Woodenhead

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2015, 12:19:33 PM »
Mississippi ordered cannon and ammunition from Tredegar shortly before the was began in April 1861. This included as many as 5,000 cannonballs with Bormann fuzes. At the time Tredegar was purchasing most of their Bormanns from Cooper & Pond, a New York City military supply firm that acted as a middle-man for an unnamed Northern manufactory. Maybe this explains your variations.

Woodenhead

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2015, 10:05:03 AM »
Before you cut it, why not send me a photo of the Bormann fuze and I'll see if it matches any of the early war Bormanns I have photographed in Virginia. There are many variations.

callicles

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2015, 12:25:25 PM »
Thanks for your help. Here is a picture of the fuse. I Have had no time to clean the shell or have it drilled but it should be clear enough (let me know if not). 

That is very interesting regarding Mississippi's purchase of projectiles with Bormann fuses.  However, if my previous shell (the one with a 90-degree wedge on the fuse, and that I had sectioned and which revealed the rebate) fell into that category, would it not have revealed the rebate? In otherwords, isn't it safe to assume that 12 pounder shells made just prior to the war did not contain the modified gasket rebate? Or am I misinformed? Again thanks for your help.

callicles

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2015, 01:02:03 PM »
Picture of sectioned 12 pound shell with gasket rebate and Bormann Fuse with 90 degree wedge.

alwion

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2015, 04:24:59 PM »
I read all I could on the previous discussions, and am now confused. I understand the rebate, and what it is, but do we know it is ONLY a CS idea, and was it beginning of the war to the end, or did it appear mid war, late war or when?  Could it have been used late was by the union?
i've been watching this thread, because I have not examined enough Boreman fuses to tell US from CS, and would like to learn, but as mentioned above, seems to be alot of different subtypes, Other than the marked US, how sure are we about the rest?

Steve Phillips

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2015, 07:17:57 PM »
Selma

Steve Phillips

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2015, 07:33:35 PM »
Trying to post

Steve Phillips

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2015, 07:36:08 PM »
Selma

Steve Phillips

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2015, 07:49:25 PM »
I have several Bormann fuzes but I don't claim to know much about them except Selma. The fuze in the projectile is from end of war Selma made in a 24 pounder case shot marked with O not G. I found several of these. The photos with a single fuze is a Selma fuze never in a shell. The group photo shows on top row a couple fuzes modified to hold a paper time fuze. Center row are all marked different, one depressed star, one raised star, one arrow and one U with backwards S. Bottom row all CS. Any info is appreciated. The Selma stuff is end of war and made in Selma...

Steve Phillips

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2015, 07:52:09 PM »
All the fuzes look to pie slice to me because I don't know what that means.

6lbgun

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2015, 08:28:38 PM »
Callicles
     When did the skirmish associated with this case shot take place?  Where in Mississippi?
Thanks
Dan

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2015, 08:53:58 PM »
callicles,
    Now I am geting confused concerning your questoin. Perhaps a consise question would help Dan and I.  I wished Pete would chime in.
     The1863 inventor of the Bormann fuse casting machine shows the "pie shaped" part the fuse head beneath the #1.  Every imageI  have of U.S. make has the "pie" beneath the #1 position.
      The inventor, George Wright, states that there were various fuses cast by pouring into individual moulds with differences.  It was Wright's intention to speed up and standardize the process.
      Perhaps Pete can shed some light on a reference of thenew casting machine being sold to the best bidder?
       I would hazard a mere hunch that the fuse leather gaset rebate was a U.S. modification. 
      Unfortunately Mr. Wright goeson and on, as do most patents confusing the reader. He also fails to describe filling and sealing the fuse.
      Wheather you cut or not  is your choice.  What will you really learn?
Regards,
John
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 08:58:31 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

callicles

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2015, 09:16:48 PM »
Steve, middle row, second fuse from the left in your group photo appears to show the 90 degree wedge on the face of the fuse.

6lbgun, Vicksburg campaign, 1863

John, the lack of a precice question is due to my ignorance, but I'll try again:

1. I was under the impression that ONLY Confederates manufactured the gasket rebate modification;

2. I was under the impression that Bormann fuses with the 90 degree wedge were ONLY manufactured by Yankees;

3. Therefore, I was confused why I would find a Confederate manufactured case-shot shell with a Yankee manufactured fuse;

4. What will I learn? Based on 1-3 above, if I section the shell and see no rebate, combined with a 90 degree wedged Bormann, I might can assume it was fired by Yankees.

I was told a couple years back that it is possible that the Confederate shell was captured by Yanks, then inserted with their own fuses, or Rebs inserting captured Yankee Bormann fuses into their own shells.
However, my "assumptions" about all this may be wrong, therefore leading to a flawed question that demands an impossible answer. But that's why I'm posting here. I want to know what better educated folks know about this topic, and if that means I'm wrong -- well
that's what I need to know.  Thanks all.

Woodenhead

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2015, 04:54:43 AM »
Here is an unfired 12 pdr Bormann from a fort around Richmond. Is it the same as your fuze? Its wedge or "pie slice" appears to be 90 degrees or more. Most are less than 90 but there are so many varieties.
One thing about the "gasket rebate modification." I'm not sure that was the reason for adding the extra space underneath. The first critical problem the South faced with the Bormann fuzes was their tendency to burn thru the top. Apparently, it wasn't just occasionally but Archer complained in an April 1, 1861, letter to U.S. Ordnance officer Ripley at the Washington Arsenal that every round he tested burned thru the top and failed to explode. About one week later, Dr. Archer (Tredegar partner responsible for fuzes and projectiles) wrote an angry letter to his New York suppliers, Cooper & Pond, complaining again about the Bormanns and insisting they speak to the manufacturer about it. The war began shortly after and within a couple of weeks Tredegar was making their own Bormanns that were thicker than originally planned to stop them from burning thru the top. That is why the lip of so many CS Bormanns rises above the surface. The issue of supporting the bottom E. P. Alexander brings up in his 1866 article occurred later during the winter of 1861-62 when they packed white lead or some other material under all the Bormann fuzes is backed up by others and might have been a factor. But the initial, and probably the primary, problem was South's manufacture of thicker Bormanns beginning in May 1861.