Civil War Projectiles Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: speedenforcer on August 09, 2012, 10:32:34 AM

Title: Confederate, NOT
Post by: speedenforcer on August 09, 2012, 10:32:34 AM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUG-CIVIL-WAR-CONFEDERATE-TYPE-EAGLE-I-PLAIN-BRASS-BACK-DUG-WINCHESTER-VA-/200803709771?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec0d5734b

This guy doesnt have a clue does he?
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: mccaul on August 10, 2012, 06:15:48 AM
He is pretty clueless!
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: PIA on August 11, 2012, 11:39:46 AM
Maybe he says it's Confederate because it was dug in a CS camp.  I've dug a pretty good few in Southern camps, BUT would never imply they were Confederate made.
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: speedenforcer on August 11, 2012, 12:25:05 PM
Yes you are correct, as the south did use a lot of yankee stuff. They had to use what they had.
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: Lamar on August 11, 2012, 02:40:30 PM
He might have made an honest mistake on that button, but I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt. He has a history of flat out lying about some of his items.
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: PIA on August 11, 2012, 03:36:59 PM
Just want to make it clear that I'm not defending the guy.  I know more about bullets than buttons.  The post did bring up a question in my mind, though.  Did the South ever produce eagle sheild, eagle I, etc. buttons?
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: ETEX on August 11, 2012, 04:40:08 PM
I don't know about buttons either but just wanted to say hey Gary. Long time no hear from.
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: Pete George on August 11, 2012, 05:13:15 PM
PIA wrote:
> Did the South ever produce eagle sheild, eagle I, etc. buttons?

  There is only one Confederate-made imitation of the US enlisted-man's eagle button (raised wings, shield on eagle's chest).  The somewhat similar looking CS-made version is shown in the A.H. Albert button book as button CS-44.  On it, the eagle's head faces in the opposite direction from the typical yankee button's eagle.  It was only issued to officers, and it is extraordinarily rare.

    The Confederacy did not manufacture any imitations of the US Army Field-grade officer's version of the "eagle" button (raised wings and a letter in the shield).  The only "close" CS-made counterpart is the super-rare "CS-in-shield" officer's button, which has raised wings but the eagle is surrounded by stars.  See the Albert book's buttons CS-17 and CS-18.

Regards,
Pete
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: pipedreamer65 on August 13, 2012, 06:53:19 AM
That seller a lot of times treads a fine line on the items he offers.  As with the button in question, he steps over the line as well. 
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: misipirelichtr on August 13, 2012, 04:45:33 PM
While I agree with everything in Mr. George's post above, I do want to add that a number of what I believe are field cast or local cast pewter eagle shield buttons have been recovered in both VIcksburg and Port Hudson from Confederate camps.  In fact, I've foud a couple and will try to post them up soon.  I don't know who made them, and I feel sure the Confederacy did not manufacture them, but enough have been found with what seem to be crude mold seams that it was more than a soldier or two making do with what they had.  And I have had the chance to compare them to earlier US pewter eagle buttons and there is a difference.  I know at least one other forum member has recovered these as well - other thoughts or comments as to origin??
Title: Pewter eagles
Post by: misipirelichtr on August 21, 2012, 02:50:38 PM
Finally, here are the photos of what I believe to be are CS used and possibly local or even field cast pewter eagle buttons.  Two of these I recovered from a CS camp in west central Mississippi; the third was recovered in Port Hudson.  I coated two of these with a matte finish polyurethene to prevent further deterioration; that is why they appear "shiny" in the photo.  I know of others recovered in the VIcksburg theater of operations and Port Hudson.  Anyone with more info on these, I certainly would welcome your thoughts or comments
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: rommack on August 21, 2012, 06:38:53 PM
Just wanted to add to the pewter eagle conversation.  I have dug quite a few of these buttons in Confederate Camps in Port Hudson.  It looks to me as if  a Yankee General Service Eagle Button was to make the mold for these buttons.  We don't find any evidence of the molding haven taken place in the field.  Can you imagine if they would have used a droop wing CS button to make the mold, how much more interest there would be in these buttons. Ronnie
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: ETEX on August 22, 2012, 03:45:22 AM
I recall talking to Gary several years back and he had dug a mess of pewter buttons in Mississippi but I don't recall what the buttons had on them.
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: alwion on August 22, 2012, 05:48:39 AM
SDince I didn't know about them, and never saw them before, I think the're cool for what they are. wish I had found one, lucky dogs:)))
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: PIA on September 03, 2012, 06:31:27 PM
The pewter Eagle Shield buttons are kinda neat and, in my opinion, under rated and under valued among collectors.  They are associated with early war Mississippi troops.  Dug most of mine in a 1862/63 Mississippi infantry brigade camp near Grenada, MS.  Finding a good specimen has become so much more difficult since the pewter has broken down over the years.  Especially hard to get one with the loop still on the back.
Gary
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: misipirelichtr on September 03, 2012, 09:06:02 PM
Gary, thanks for the additional info on the pewter eagle buttons.  The association with early Mississippi troop camps makes sense given the known recovery locations. 
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: speedenforcer on September 08, 2012, 12:56:09 AM
Thanks to everyone for their replies. very educational.
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: modockowando on September 09, 2012, 11:54:13 PM
I am new here and just wanted to introduce myself.  I live in the northeast.. Enjoy digging a little too much.  Hope to learn more about bullets etc. in joining this group.  Looking thru some of the recent posts i ran across this one.. On buttons.  Just found one of these today- in maine.  I thought it was really cool as i hadn't found one before.  In doing some amt of research (web) it seemed to be  identified with the south (for the most part) - i was surprised by this. 
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: modockowando on September 10, 2012, 07:57:35 AM
This is the one I picked up yesterday.  The other button was in the same hole along with a number of bullets (couple different types).  Maybe the one I found is a Yankee General Service Eagle Button.  It is in process of being cleaned up a bit (shine)
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: ETEX on September 10, 2012, 12:40:55 PM
Welcome to the forum and enjoy. Hope to see pics of some of the bullets you have dug.
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: Selma Brooke Gunner on September 10, 2012, 01:09:09 PM
Welcome to the forum. Never to fear to ask a question the folks here are Great :)
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: CarlS on September 10, 2012, 02:43:34 PM
Welcome modockowando!  Glad to have a new member and poster!  I would venture a guess we don't have too many from Maine!

Congrats on the US pewter.  I've only found one of those but it's one of my favorite finds due to the period used and the letters on the front.  I just really found I thought it a cool find for my meager button collection.

The other looks like a general service eagle button to me as well but I'm no button guy.  We're mostly bullet and artillery guys here but knowing many of the members I'd be shocked it we didn't have some top notch button guys too.  It's amazing the knowledge you'll find on this forum.
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: Pete George on September 10, 2012, 03:47:00 PM
  Your button with the eagle appears to be an "early" version of the US Army eagle-button.  (On the "early" versions, the eagle is shown "leaning" toward its left side.)  If your is a 1-piece brass button (the loop was attached directly onto the rear of the button's front), it is from the 1820s through late 1830s.  If your "leaning eagle" button is a 2-piece button (the loop was attached to a disc of brass in the back of the button), it is from the late-1830s through 1853.

  Would you be the honest seller I recently communicated with on Ebay, and whom I invited to join this forum?

Regards,
Pete
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: modockowando on September 10, 2012, 07:21:04 PM
Yep.. It's me!   Thanks again for the invite.  Good to talk and share. 

I am always thrilled to find a button since they can be easy to miss even with a pin pointer. These two were wedged in pretty good!  Went back to this same area today but time was limited so only came home with a few bullets and spatter.  I'll get a photo of the back side  of the us army eagle-button to show everyone. Interesting about the lean of the eagle!    More abt the back:  the shank is missing; one-piece domed with stars and dots, also  two circles, and two letters on the back.. Possibly a T (?) and an R.  manufacturers initials??  and yes, it appears to be brass. Let me know what you think once you see the photo.

     I will throw some bullets out for id also.. Just need to get back to the computer for this.  I have just started posting some of my finds on ebay.. Still learning the ropes.  Had a nice button go out today.. Sort of sad to see it go but i can only hold onto so much.
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: modockowando on September 10, 2012, 07:37:31 PM
Here's the photo of the back side of this button. 
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: Pete George on September 10, 2012, 10:18:54 PM
  According to info in the McGuinn-&-Bazelon book on button-backmarks ("American Military Button Makers And Dealers; Their Backmarks & Dates"), the "R R" in your 1820s-30s 1-piece eagle-button's backmark represents Richard Robinson, one of the button-makers during that time-period at the firm of R&W Robinson in Attleboro Massachusetts.  The book says the firm had a contract for making eagle-A (Artillery) buttons in 1820, and produced eagle-I buttons during the 1820s/30s.  So, your button could have had either an A or an I on its shield.  Is there any trace of such a letter remaining on it?

Regards,
Pete
Title: Re: Confederate, NOT
Post by: modockowando on September 11, 2012, 05:49:52 AM
The shield is too worn to appreciate any type of lettering on it.. But this is great information.  Thank you!  Also good to have the source..