Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: Selma Hunter on December 20, 2017, 07:52:46 AM
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Another forum member wrote recently to invite my opinion regarding a specific letter mark ("R") on projectiles and an association with Selma. This is my response - imperfect and flawed surely - but another place to start perhaps. The attachments will have to follow as separate entries as Carl's otherwise most excellent puzzle palace continues to befuddle me.
My Thoughts on the matter of "Lettering" on projectiles.
This is a topic raised quite frequently on and off of the forum. As such it seems appropriate to address the subject here as well as directly with the person raising the question with me.
The more I read and ponder this question the more I am convinced that these marks aren’t necessarily those of the various Army Arsenals/Naval Works exclusively but rather some are those of the various contractors thereto. It is widely known that the CS government made wide use of private sector contractors to provide projectiles.
After a recent romp through the pages of what I refer to as the “Canfield Roll” (microfilm) I once again found my “Brooks & Gaynor” CD. This information not only shed some light on the mystery of the “Briarfield Arsenal” but also may have given us a hint at some other new thoughts as well. If any of this isn’t news or at least worth some further discussion then I’d ask Carl to wipe it off the forum to save space. Having allowed that the letters on projectiles were placed there to assist the various government representatives and field commands to identify same once they were submitted by the contractors it is also possible that for projectiles that were actually cast by the Arsenals/Ordnance Works “lettering” is also viable. No doubt this would have been perfectly understandable by those then present the absence of any lasting record leaves us guessing to this day.
Ergo. The “Selma G” query. From what appears in the records of the Briarfield Arsenal from early 1862 forward to some time in 1864 we can determine the following:
1) Briarfield Arsenal was located BY NAME in Columbus, MS no later than the first quarter of 1862 with the associated Memphis Ordnance Depot (?) having been relocated under the command of Maj. Wm. R. Hunt. (This is consistent with yankee encroachment and CS contractions in the Trans-Chattahoochee).
2) Brooks & Gaynor was a munitions supplier (like C. B. Churchill, etc. of Natchez, Corinth & Columbiana) located in Columbus at that time, whether relocated to that place or originating there.
3) As indicated in the images of vouchers posted herewith B&G supplied many different types of projectiles, fuzes, etc. some of which are surprising – e.g. stands of “12lbr grape shot”.
4) Some of these projectiles were shipped directly to Ft. Pillow as annotated on the vouchers thereby placing guns of the associated bore size at or near that place – again perhaps answering lingering questions about recoveries in that region.
5) Vouchers reflect not only shipment of munitions but also some or all of the Brooks & Gaynor tooling and equipment to Selma. It appears that there may have been a sale undertaken as the military storekeeper at the Army Arsenal signed receipts for same and money was apparently exchanged on the authority of White, commanding Selma Arsenal. Thus we have the “Briarfield Arsenal” relocated to Selma by default. Clearly projectiles were provided to Selma before and after this transaction. It seems now (& here I postulate) that the “Briarfield Arsenal” was subsequently sold/resold and relocated to Columbiana thus addressing the reason for the association of that Arsenal name with all three locations.
6) Inasmuch as the Selma Arsenal already had a commanding officer (Capt. & later LtC. James White), Maj. Wm. R. Hunt was then given responsibility for another function in Selma in view of the redundancy.
7) Now, enter the “G”. Since the firm was providing projectiles that would reasonably have to be tracked through the inventory for both accounting and performance reasons the “G” (for Gaynor) would logically be a good letter for that purpose as the “B” may well have been in use for another provider.
8) Back to Arsenal/Ordnance Works “lettering”. A number of changes happened within both Army and Navy facilities. The first example might be the relocation of the New Orleans Navy Ordnance Works to Atlanta in 1862. Lt. McCorkle continued to sign his correspondence as the “New Orleans” facility long afterwards. Now this brings up another potential reason for confusing “Lettering” practices. Not only did ordnance facilities experience physical location changes but also changes in commanding officers. Either or both reasons could be cause for a different letter to be used.
Taken into consideration, all of these various factors argue for a complex and confusing occurrence of “Letters” associated with different Arsenals/Ordnance Works and various times during the war. It is hoped that someone within our population of enthusiasts with far more knowledge than I have on the subject will dig further into the names of suppliers and their government customers to see if this theory may hold up – in whole or in part.
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Just to stir the pot a bit, here are a few thoughts I have come across, mainly from long-time diggers is as follows:
"R" - Selma
"G" - Selma
"Omega Sign" - Selma
"Star" - Charleston
"D" - Atlanta
"C" - Charlotte or Charleston
Hopefully this will encourage more opinions - maybe even get someone to find some original documents that specify.
Merry Christmas to all,
Jack
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Add to Jacks post. O Selma, 7 Selma
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collected over the years, no actual confirmation
G or Omega selma
C Tredegar?
Q sampson and Pae
D atlanta
Star charleston or altanta
I
F
H sampson and pae to 1862
backwards S
T
ar adolus rahm
A
S&P sampson and Pae from 1863
JV
DHB
TT
BY Brooklyn yard
BY over 3m
my list as I like lists, but from a couple sources
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What about the Samson & Pae "Z"? Here it is on two 10 pdr. Read-Parrotts. Three views of the first -one of many dug along the upper Rappahannock from the late 1863 Bristoe - Mine Run campaign. The second example was dug from the Dec 1863 artillery duel at Rapidan Station. It has a typical 1863 copper fuze plug with a narrow head and no space for a washer underneath. The simple zinc fuze plug in the first 10 pdr. is more rare and interesting. It resembled the fuze plugs in the early war U.S. Dyers. These have only been seen in S & P 10pdr. and 20pdr. Parrotts made between Feb and June 1863. Samson & Pae had no copper during that period. Unlike some of their peers, Samson & Pae manufactured their own fuzes. More common are their shells marked "C" and "H". I believe these were some kind of inspection marks. They only had time to thoroughly inspect about one out of five. I suspect the same was true of the "AR" of Adolphus Rham.
Barely Alive!
Woodenhead
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Woodenhead/Mike, I posted a welcome-back message in the Relic Discussion > Miscellaneous category to keep from derailing the letters-on-shells discussion.
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Here is a mystery shell marking. A "w" has been struck into the top bourrelet. ANY ideas? I photo'ed it years ago at Harrisburg PA state museum. Part of a Gettysburg collection supposedly picked up by Union officers in 1872. I suspect it was actually from an 1864 site in VA. Note the thickness of the fuze head and gap below for a washer. NO 1863 CS shells I'm aware of had such a thick flange on their long-range fuze plugs. I've seen a couple of identical Reads from the Bermuda HUndred area.
I'm thinking its a Sampson & Pae mark as they stamped letter "H" into the top bourrelet of a number of their Reads made in late 1862 or early 63. The fourth pic below is an example. At this time they were stamping the same letter "H" in some of their 10 & 20 pdr. Read-Parrotts. Both REads have superior die-struck copper sabots and lathe keys broken off the nose. S & P frequently changed their mold patterns.
Woodenhead
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Here are two more odd ones, a backwards S on a 6pdr Bormann ball with the drilled out CS fuse found in Louisiana (Red River Campaign)...
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...and an asterisk found on a 3in Broun recovered at Petersburg:
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This is a CS 20 pdr. Pete and I photo'ed at the great Ohio Show during the 1990s. I believe it was dug in the Richmond-Petersburg area. IT was made in Richmond by Samson & Pae. This was their "C" stamp. There was no Tredegar association with this letter. The legendary ironworks production records confirm that they stopped making Field-caliber rifle projectiles by the end of 1862. The first "C" appears on the bearing surface of one of the last 3.35 inch Reads made by S & P no later than the summer of 1862. Only S & P cast THESE sturdy little Reads with iron sabots for Virginia's reamed and rifled 4 pounder guns. At the time they launched production in fall of 1861, all Reads were supposed to have wrought iron sabots. Afterwards, I have only seen the "C" on 10 & 20 pdr Read-Parrotts made by Samson & Pae ( also seen on some 30 pdrs. and a few others). Most stamping of that letter appears to date late 1862 and early 1863. That was probably when this shell was produced. It has the firm's typical deep-cut lathing and sweged wrought iron sabot with a pronounced air vent in the center of the base. It looks like a wood fuze plug.
Woodenhead
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I may have missed it somewhere but what was the point in putting makers mark on shells? Was it a form of quality control?
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Speedenforcer,
Take another look at my opening post!
Happy New Year!
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aint I a moron. ::) lol. sorry.
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I have noted several CS 20 pdr. Read-Parrotts with odd markings stamped in the bearing surface. This one looks like a "U". Note the serifs. Some were stamped with what appears to be symbols. I believe it indicated that those particular items were fully inspected. I think this shell was made by Richmond's Samson & Pae. Note their typical raised rectangular air vent around the dimple on the base. ON the nose view below you can see the mold seam and what appears to be the round "gate" where the molten iron poured in. Even thou this shell has a number painted, I don't believe it is from Gettysburg. Most of these marked 20 pdrs. have come from the 1864 Richmond-Petersburg theater. One feature suggesting earlier production is the irregular wrought iron sabot that appears to be hammered metal, not sweged, a superior practice that S & P started in early 1863.
Woodenhead
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Does anyone know anything about this marked shell. It walked into the big Richmond Show during the 1990s. Pete asked me to photo it. I think it was a CS Deep South 10 pdr Read-Parrott dug around Petersburg but I am not certain about that. Note no lathe dimple in iron base and cast copper sabot. It looks a little shorter than the standard. Any ideas?
WH
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From the photo, it sure looks like someone stamped it well after the war had ended. But I'm thinking since you and Mr. George found it of interest, that's not the case.
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Had you not mentioned it being a 10-lber I would have thought from the profile that it was one of the baby Reads from South Carolina.
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Maybe it was from SC. Pete asked me to shoot it years ago and my memory is not so good. We know very little about the CS shells and makers from the last year of the war. The copper sabot means it was not made in Richmond. Absence of a lathe dimple might date it from the first year of the war. I assume the letters were stamped when it was made but I don't know for certain. I was hoping some of the guys were familiar with this unusual marked shell or others like it.
Woodenhead
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To add another letter, this one a Union marking, it's "JY" on an 11-inch shell also marked with a "BY."
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This topic is just too good to let it die! How about the prominent "L" seen stamped into a number of 3 inch Broun sabots. I photo'ed this example at Pete's during the 1980s. He had additional similarly marked shells. I strongly suspect it represented the maker Lenher & White whose invoices confirm the production of about 1,500 3 inch Rifle shells between January and May of 1864. This small Richmond foundry finished many of the six and 12 pounders cast by other foundries like Adolphus Rham whose invoices were frequently marked "unfinished" when the projectiles were turned over to the Richmond Arsenal. The Rich. Arsenal subcontracted the finishing to Lenher & White and supplied them with Bormann underplugs to fill the side-loading holes. When the Arsenal ran out of the obsolete underplugs, Lenher & WHITE began making their own small brass side plugs (with two spanner holes) like those dug around Petersburg and shown in Pete's book. So. add the "L" to your list.
Woodenhead
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Thanks for this great info
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I have found a small number of 10" Columbiad shells with the letter T stamp. Any ideas?
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Is Tredegar too obvious?
It is interesting the variety of stamps you've found there. Haven't there been T, D, S, and star stamped found? Am I missing anything?
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T. D and star but no S on the 10" balls Carl